To start, or not to start

[Gratger66]

Starter was working a couple of weeks ago, but I am extremely gifted when it comes to breaking nice things.

After a little work on the electronics box, I reattached components to my wiring harness, went to connect battery neg to ground and sent sparks where my starter relay's body was making contact to some exposed metal on the frame (I figured everything happened internally when the contact disk connected the terminals, little confused as to how this happened).

Went to start the bike - lights work, battery fully charged - nothing happened. I was able to start the bike by connecting the terminals on the starter relay with a wrench so I figured the relay was shot. Got my new one in from mikesxs and still no luck. Once again, connecting the terminals with a wrench worked.

I am thinking it might be something with the bar switch assembly and how it is grounded, I just got some new handlebars that I had to sand to expose the metal. But that's the only thing I have been able to come up with.

Thoughts??

 

[MaxPete]

I'll bet the starter safety relay is simply dirty. I wrote a note on testing the starter safety relay (SSR) and cleaning it. I have cut and pasted it below.
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Well, another frustrating day. Just as I thought that the issue was handlebar grounding, it turned out that it wasn't. I went on a ride with some buddies and the starter failed to work after a fuel stop. Of course, it should have been obvious that the handlebar was properly grounded because the horn works perfectly and it also uses the handlebar as a ground. If the handlebar ground was bad - the horn wouldn't work, along with the starter.

Nope...that wasn't the problem.

It turns out (I'm 97% sure) that the problem all along was the starter safety relay (SSR) That's the little domed boxy thingy inside the RH side cover just under the starter solenoid. It has a R-W wire and a 3-terminal plug coming,out of it. The SSR is there to prevent you from engaging the starter motor while the bike is running - thus, it protects that fragile and expensive starter gears. It does this by preventing 12 volts from getting to the primary windings of the starter solenoid IF the bike is running and the alternator voltage is above about 6 volts or so.

After much thought all day about what the he!! is going on with this starter circuit I finally pulled off the SSR (two large JIS screws), disconnected the R-W wire and the 3-terminal plug and took off the domed cover (two very small JIS screws). Wow - what a mess inside! The innards of this thing were corroded and dirty and there was a layer of mung on the little contacts of the armature. Once I cleaned it up with some electrical contact cleaner and a toothbrush, the darned thing worked perfectly.

BTW - there are all sorts of postings on the web about ditching the SSR and running without it - but I would not do that. If you eliminate the Starter Safety Relay and then accidentally hit that starter button while tooling down the road, you could do A LOT of damage to the starter gear train and possibly wind up with metal debris floating around in the crank bearings etc.
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Please let us know how this goes.

Pete

 

[retiredgentleman]

Your START push button gets its ground from the handlebar. First thing check that the handlebars are grounded..................use your VOM to measure resistance from the handlebars to the battery negative terminal. If the bars are grounded, then measure resistance of the blue/white wire ( at the starter relay) to battery negative terminal. The blue/white wire should be grounded when you push the PB.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

First off what are you working on ?
if it's an 80 to 84 version of the xs650 there are about 4 different things it could be
there is a side stand switch that stops the starter relay from working.
there is the neutral light arrangement that prevents the relay from working if it's in gear
and there is the handle bar ground issue
I ripped out the side stand safety switch on my 83'
and bypassed the " it has to be in neutral before the starter will work" crap
and now I have no issues when starting my bike ...in gear or with the sidestand down !
..... just how I want it !
....
Bob.........

 

[Gratger66]

Thanks guys, sorry for the late response. Just started school and my clutch blew out so I've been extremely busy between those two.

MP-
I pulled off the SSR and it was super clean inside - so clean that it must've been replaced fairly recently. It seems all the connections are in good shape too. Funny thing... in investigating this problem before I decided to post I came across that very post of yours that you reposted here.

Retiredgentleman-
I'm away for the weekend but suspect this is the problem. I'll run through this test and let you know what happens. Thanks for the details on assessing whether or not that's the problem.

BK -
My bike is a 77, I'll take a look at the wiring diagram and see if I could be running into the same problems!

 

[Bob Kelly III]

I don't believe the 77' version has all that safety crap on it so your safe !!!!!
I did however have the same problem with my 82' it would start and run fine but only if I jumped the starter relay manually
i found eventually there were 4 things stopping it from working all of them the safety garbage they added... so I disconnected or took off or bypassed all those things and now it does what it's supposed to any time any where.... and that is how I want it....
I can't for the life of me figure out How they think it's safer to have to find neutral at a stop sign before your starter will work !
a quick hit of the starter button would have you running and going before you get rear ended or traffic backs up behind you !
I thought for a while it was just a "Californiacated" version.... but seams like all 80~84 XS650 's are this way.
I think you may have a Neutral safety relay, but I am not sure at all.... I think the 77' version is fairly pristine in that respect.
.....
good luck finding that gremlin !
....
Bob.......

 

[retiredgentleman]

Bob Kelly.......................on the 1981 to 1983 models, you don't have to be in neutral. Just pull in the clutch, which operates the clutch switch and operates the Starter Lockout Relay. On the 82 and 83 models you also needed the sidestand to be up. I think the interlocks on your bike were not working properly.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Ahh that could be , that or my memory isn't that accurate enough to piss at ! LOL
what ever the case I don't have to worry about them now ! and I like it alot better this way.
it's not stock.... but some things stock need to be changed in my opinion.
....
Bob.....

 

[gggGary]

At the starter relay check for +12 on the red white with the key on if you have that; ground the blue white wire it should crank, if not the problem is the blue white wire or in the handlebar area.

 

[XSLeo]

Just ensuring a good connection from the switch housing to the bars may not be enough. Did you clean to bare metal on both sides or just the start button side?
On my 75 start button ground path was to bars, bars to left riser. On the bottom of riser is a nut, A jumper wire ran from under this nut around to one of the upper tree clamp bolts. The ground flowed through this wire to trees, neck stem, bearings to the frame, then to battery. Your 77 may be the same.
On the later years the bars grounded with a wire from the left switch housing down into the headlight bucket to the harness ground. I'm not sure what year Yamaha changed the ground path.
Does the horn button make the horn toot? If so the ground path from the bars is ok. The horn button grounds to the bars the same as the start button.
It could be a dirty start button. Well not the button itself. The start button is a two piece item. The black plastic button has a brass contact on the inner end that contacts a metal strip the goes down and touches the bars.
This brass button could be corroded or the metal strip where the button touches it may be corroded.
As gggGary said the red/white wire should have full battery power when the key is on and the engine not running. When the engine starts the safety relay cuts the power.
If you have full power on the R/W wire disconnect the blue/white wire and jumper it to ground. This bypasses the start button and should crank the engine.
Leo