XS1 XS650 Handling

[gggGary]

I think it would easier (and cheaper) to "retro-ize" a special or later standard than to "improve the handling" on a 70. my two cents.
Throw a random drum front wheel on a later bike. Toss on some early styling cues, done.

 

[5twins]

You might consider converting to the later 35mm 650 fork and using an SR500 drum wheel. They never sold them in the states but I think you guys got them. Honestly, for a daily rider, I'd stay away from '73 and older "256" type 650s.

 

[blknoel]

And why is that 5twins? Due to engine part availability issue or due to the handling aspect of pre 74 bikes?

 

[5twins]

Both actually. You can get parts for those engines but they cost more and can be harder to find. As Gary mentioned, a later model "retro-ed" to look older may be easier on your wallet and easier to keep in daily service.

 

[jetmechmarty]

A better XS-1. (not mine)

I'm sorry about the terrible photographer. (me)

 

[GreasyC]

If you end up with an old bike one thing the early frame does have going for it is a shorter neck tube, so putting a modern set of forks on it is just a bearings and washers swap. The later frame has an oddly long tube that's more of a hassle. High quality forks that weren't upside-down or overtly "modern looking" were produced right up into the 2000s and are cheap used. I used a set from an r6. I imagine you could work out a stay to run a drum brake with them.

 

[acebars]

Where are all those incredible Bonnies? Did they not export them?

Erm well the Triumph forks had 4 bolts on each fork, not the piddly 1 on the xs-1! As well as brilliant frames. Also check out this website:

http://victorylibrary.com/brit/2LS-table.htm

Notice all the Triumph 8" 2LS drums are mostly 20-50% more effective than most of their Japanese 2LS counterparts of later years and are in fact the best 2LS drums, HD are good as well. The conical being half way in between the performance of a XS-1 and the famed and expensive Suzuki 4LS drum.

Anyway, just though I might add I've just bought '73 TX650! Other than the electric start I understand the engine internals and cams etc. are the same as an XS-1 and XS-2? (Have posted this elsewhere too! )

 

[acebars]

@

I had another look at this and it does look like a good solution for the fork brace, I was initially reluctant as it looked too bulky.

View attachment 22059

This one does look a little more discreet and a perfect solution.

Just wanted to ask, I've never seen such a brace setup on any other old school bikes, is there a specific reason why it needs to be employed on an XS650? Let's say on a 35mm setup?

 

[Okie]

BMW riders have been using this same type of brace for 30 + years with good results, it's a bit bulkier, but works. I've had one on my R90 since 1979.

 

[650Skull]

An article written up for "2 wheels magazine" on the 1972 Castrol 6 hour race in Australia. This was a true production bike race, the bikes come off the showroom floor. In the days of production Bike/car races, i think about the only upgrade that could be done to a bike/car was to blueprint the engine . Something you don't hear about these days.

Read this and then you can make up your mind if the handling was as bad as the articles written about it, i think the bike in its day, compared to others at the time, was underrated in its production form.

Could it have been improved........yes ...and it was .....but was it as good as others when it come out..........You decide.

 

[acebars]

Well sounds like the typical pro-Jap anti-British rubbish that was typical of the early 70s period especially in Britain, and I would be willing to put money that those were British writers, in typical self hating fashion that is all telltale of the left-wing rise in the UK of the 60-70s, the Jap bikes certainly catered for the working man compared to the Brit industry..

I note as well it said that Triumph had a chance of "pulling it off again" until the broken main shaft and that only a few Brit bikes entered according to the author, no mention of Jap break downs, tut tut.

The 650 Bonneville was lighter and a better handler than all of its Jap counterparts, so while the CB750 is a more powerful bike, it is a complete pig when not driving in a straight line for example. No doubt why the Bonnie 650s still often got the better of them often on long events right up until the collapse of the industry..

 

[acebars]

Although about a CB750, this is a very correct appraisal of Japanese bikes in general in the 70s from a very correct and experienced gentleman and my opinion too! Notice the poorer handling compared to Brit bikes.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I lost a friend to hi-speed wobble on `73 cb-750. Almost lost another riding a `71. Weight, shorter trail, weak swingarm bearings, neglected spoke tightness, weight shift forward with aggressive front brake causing even shorter trail and reduced rake, all contributing factors...

 

[acebars]

I lost a friend to hi-speed wobble on `73 cb-750. Almost lost another riding a `71. Weight, shorter trail, weak swingarm bearings, neglected spoke tightness, weight shift forward with aggressive front brake causing even shorter trail and reduced rake, all contributing factors...

That sucks, I'm really sorry to hear that .

 

[650Skull]

Well sounds like the typical pro-Jap anti-British rubbish that was typical of the early 70s period especially in Britain, and I would be willing to put money that those were British writers, in typical self hating fashion that is all telltale of the left-wing rise in the UK of the 60-70s, the Jap bikes certainly catered for the working man compared to the Brit industry..[/QOUTE]

It was a race in Australia and covered in, i presume, the Australian edition of 2 wheels, by , I presume, an Australian author. Was the author typically pro Jap, no idea and i didn't see that in the article.. I didn't post intending to upset any one but it seems i may have offended your British heritage. Sorry..........The poster of the original article into the XS650 club magazine did also contribute some of his on words on the first page.

I note as well it said that Triumph had a chance of "pulling it off again" until the broken main shaft and that only a few Brit bikes entered according to the author, no mention of Jap break downs, tut tut.

Yea, mentions the quality of the Bonnie and the fact it won the previous year. A race is won on reliability, and if you read to the end it goes on to say how unreliable a jap manufacturer was and some associated problems with the bikes.

The 650 Bonneville was lighter and a better handler than all of its Jap counterparts, so while the CB750 is a more powerful bike, it is a complete pig when not driving in a straight line for example. No doubt why the Bonnie 650s still often got the better of them often on long events right up until the collapse of the industry..

I never questioned the difference in quality the Triumph had in racing compared to Jap bikes. I posted the article to show that maybe, just possibly, the XS650 was competitive in its day. A Triumph was a good bike but it did have reliability problems. I don't know why you got so upset, if you want an old Triumph go and buy one.

There is a brace that can be welded across the frame, above the swing arm pivot, from one side to the other and connecting to the the main down tube. It is welded in the three points but has to be done with the swing arm in place, and makes it tricky to remove and replace the swing-arm. Used to have a pic of it but have lost it in reshuffles.

 

[acebars]

650Skull, that's the trouble with the internet it doesn't account for tone of voice or facial expressions, I wasn't actually upset even though I'm clearly fond of Brit bikes!

Just wanted to point out you can read dribble on both sides from that era, for example one side is the Triumph advertising (which is depressing) and magazines still loyal to the Brit industry who would focus and subtly berate the poor handling of Japanese bikes of the time and the other side those focusing and subtly berating the engine technology of the aging Brit bikes!

 

[acebars]

Another thing just crossed my mind about the difference between Japanese and Brit bikes,

The Brit bikes are mostly dry sump engines, that although older systems are better in my opinion, one of the main reasons for me saying this is a dry sump system allows the engine and cylinders to sit lower and so gives a nice low centre of gravity, although that said an uprated oil pump is a good idea.

I'd be interested in the comparison of handling of a late Royal Enfield Interceptor, a wonderful and overlooked bike that switched from dry to wet sump (the engine looks taller than an XS there), although it's front brake was always too weak, likewise I think I remember the CB750 switching from dry to wet in the early days, interesting how much of a difference it would make to handling.

 

[Growl]

You make a good point but I don't think it's the deciding aspect. My dry sump Buell handled fab and so did the wet sump Suzuki Bandit which I rented for a week. While low center of gravity IS an important consideration, it's the lack of rigidity of frame, swing arm and forks as a whole system that is the failing in the early Japanese bikes (in my opinion, of course

 

[txxs]

Congratulations on buying the 73TX.
Although the XS1, XS2, TX650 are "256" engines there are slight differences in the
engine internals including the fact that the compression ratio was lowered (to reduce vibration). I traded in a XS1 for a brand new TX650 in 1973.
The XS1 vibrated a lot but was recognised as the stronger engine back then. The XS1 sump was also 3 litres versus 2.5 litres on the XS2 & TX650. The TX650 is much smoother. I like both of them.
(The big changes came in 1974 with the TX650A "447" engine).

 

[drgonzo]

If you end up with an early bike, just use the tapered neck bearings and bronze swing arm bushings, add some good shocks, fork oil of your choice and good tires like AVON AM26's. You will have a nice bike that you can ride fast with confidence.
If you really want to push it, then add the later 35mm disc brake fork with a brace, alloy rims and the longer later swing arm. Then you can run 14"shocks since the shock angle has changed.
I have owned early and later models, standards and specials and race a '72.
Never expect any 40+ year old bike to handle well without a little sorting.