XS650 BigFin KIt

ihaxs650

XS650 Enthusiast
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Shop installed Mikes Big Fin XS 650 kit. I purchased the 650 cc kit because I did not want to create any additional headaches by increasing to 750 cc. The bike was running fine before the upgrade but had low compression on one of the cylinders. I was trying to solve the mysterious puzzle of finding neutral so the Big Fin kit may run the bike at a lower temperature and finding neutral at a complete stop may be doable. The kit is installed looks nice and finding neutral is still a mystery. The shop says to take it easy on the bike for a while. Well, you can't help but take it easy, the bike will not rev above 3k in 4th and maybe 3rd gear as well. The 650 starts easy and idles smoother than ever with little engine noise. I have about 100 miles on the rebuild and am about to re-torque the head and adjust the valves. I have a sinking feeling that these adjustments are not going to solve the revving issue. I am about ready to call the shop but I am looking at 100 miles one way to transport the bike. I do not want the shop come back on me and say that I created the problem with the re-torque and valve adjustment. It is very difficult to find shops that will work on these older bikes. Any thoughts? Or maybe a better question is.. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
 
Rebuilt the Top end to fix a clutch problem. IDK......Lube the clutch cable. Lube the clutch actuator. Check the clutch assembly. Change the oil if it's been a while. As for your low speeds, were the pistons fitted or just installed? Did you lap your valves in while the heads were off?
Tell us more about your relations with your XS...Do you have a Factory Service Manual? Clymers?
 
So what you are saying is the engine reved great before the top end job but will not rev now? I'll go with the cam timing off a tooth since that appears the only change. Is this a points bike? They might have the advance timing off. Sorry, back to the shop.


Tom
 
Azman857: I installed a hydraulic clutch "Heiden" and i would never go back to cable. The hydraulic clutch is trouble free with a consistent release point with the engine hot or cold. I have owned the bike for 25 plus years and i have some mechanical ability. But push come to shove i would rather have the shop do the work. I have a Clymers and do not know what steps the shop took for the kit install.

Tomterrific: Yes, the engine revved great before the install but with low compression on one cylinder. This is a 1980 Special with factory TCI ignition. I use the electric starter motor and it fires right up, idles nice and the throttle has a normal response in neutral. First and second feel normal with first "feeling" more normal than second. By third it feels like i am on 350 cc bike.
 
Me, I don't worry about finding a shop, I do the work myself. That way I know it's done right.
Finding neutral is mostly a clutch adjustment. Both the worm assembly and cable. Proper lube of both are essential. The kitchen foil funnel and oil method is best for the cable, using one of those adapters that clamp on the cable and use a spray lube are easy but not very good. I do use the adapter thing to clean the cable, hook up a spray can of carb cleaner to spray through the cable, shoot in some, let it set then spray more till what comes out the other end is clear. Then lube.
On the worm remove it from the cover, look to see the way the arm points before you take it apart and as you take it apart. This way you can get it back together right. Take out the adjuster screw also. Now clean all the old lube out. Inspect for cracks or other damage. If ok lube with most any grease, I use whatever is in the grease gun at the time. reassemble.
When you have the cable and worm well lubes reinstall on the bike. Adjust as your repair manual explains. The only changes I make to that procedure is at the point you back off the adjuster, I spin the adjuster screw in and out a few times to get a good feel for how much effect it takes to spin the screw. I then slowly turn the adjuster in till I just feel an increase in the effort to turn the screw.
This is the point you have removed all the slack between the worm and pressure plate. This is just a touch tight, you want a bit of slack here to help prevent slippage. The book says turn the adjuster screw back out 1/4 turn. I use a bit less. 1/6 of a turn. As you turn the screw let the lock nut turn with it. Watch the flats on the nut. Turn the screw back one flat of the nut. Now hold the screw while you snug down the lock nut.
Now on the cable. At the lever turn the adjuster out to get about 1/8 inch free play. I do this by holding the cable and gently pulling it away from the adjuster.
This way you can easily see the cable end move in the adjuster.
This does put the lever out so it's bit harder to reach but it opens the pressure plate as much as it can open. This relieves clutch drag as much as possible and eases finding neutral.
The well lubed parts make it easy to pull.
On the low revs. As mentioned your ignition can cause this. On a bike that uses the mechanical advancer, such as all the points bikes as well as some of the after market ignitions, the lube on the rod gets old and dry and prevents free movement of the rod inside the cam. This can prevent the timing from advancing as it should, this can prevent full revs. Easy fix is to remove the rod, Watch how the alignment marks line up, The disc has an arrow, the advancer a line, Everything must line up as it was. Clean off the rod and the inside of the cam. When apart you will see into the cam. It has two bushings in each end, one is smooth on the inside the other has grooves. Clean out the old crud in these grooves and refill with fresh grease. Don't try to fill the whole cam with grease, just the bushings at each end. The rod itself just a thin coat covering the rod is ok.
Also it could be a carb related issue, air leaks can lean out the mix and cause low revs. Poor carb adjustments can also.
On carb issues I recommend you read the carb guide, www.amckayltd.com/carbguide.pdf
If you don't have a repair manual I recommend getting one. Free from biker.net, I have that download plus some others as well as the factory books from 70 to 82. I have both the Clymer and Hayne's books. I prefer the factory books but the Clymer and Hayne's books are ok. They both have some errors in translation. These errors are why it's good to have more than one reference.
Leo
 
Almost forgot, there are not any "additional headaches" when going to the 750. I thought there would be when I did my 75. I spent about two weeks adjusting carbs thinking there would have to be differences, I ended up right back where I was as a 650.
The only problem you might run into is about 12% more power and in my case much less vibes above 4000 rpm.
There is no noticeable difference in wear and tear on the engine or bike unless you race it. Then it won't really matter because they get torn down for regular inspections to find any problems before the can cost you a race.
Leo
 
Unplug the rec/reg combo unit, and then see how the engine revs up. The trigger magnet gets weak over the years, and thus gives a weak signal to the TCI. Unplugging the rec/reg removes the rotor magnetic field, and may allow the weak magnet to do its job. Simple easy test to try.
 
Azman857: I installed a hydraulic clutch "Heiden" and i would never go back to cable. The hydraulic clutch is trouble free with a consistent release point with the engine hot or cold. I have owned the bike for 25 plus years and i have some mechanical ability. But push come to shove i would rather have the shop do the work. I have a Clymers and do not know what steps the shop took for the kit install.

Tomterrific: Yes, the engine revved great before the install but with low compression on one cylinder. This is a 1980 Special with factory TCI ignition. I use the electric starter motor and it fires right up, idles nice and the throttle has a normal response in neutral. First and second feel normal with first "feeling" more normal than second. By third it feels like i am on 350 cc bike.
have installed the heidens hyd clutch as well ,love it and like you would never go back BUT still have trouble finding neutral with bike running , maybe just the nature of the beast
 
XSLeo: I remember posting how hard is it to kick start the Big Fin 750 kit vs the stock XS650. The answer i got convinced me right or wrong that it was much more difficult to kick start the Big Fin 750. I did not want any potential issues with more stress on the starting system. So i opted for the Big Fin 650. I remember reading your posts about the Big Fin 750 having less vibration than the stock 650.

Retired Gentleman: I called the shop and they advised me to bring the bike back and they will take care of the problem. They mentioned they never rode it hard enough to realize the bike will not rev.

Flea: Cannot find neutral with the heiden hyd clutch while hot and stopped but i look at it as a very nice upgrade. The only other upgrade that was necessary was the 650 Central front disk brake kit. The stock front disk set up was totally useless. It is no longer a crap shoot when applying the brakes! I must love these old bikes because the $ i just spent would make a nice down payment on a Street Twin with that nice easy pulling slipper clutch.
 
You need about 0.063" of axial worm gear movement, in order to get enough plate separation, so that you can find neutral with a hot engine. If you have less than that, that's why you have a problem.
 
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One thing these bike have over the street glide is soul. Each one is different. once those bikes are 30+ years, and guys start doing cafes, hardtails, scramblers and side cars, they will have earned their souls thru re-wires, po's, and ageing electronics
 
I can't see your big fin kit making any difference to the clutch, it'll still get plenty warm enough to drag. Pretty much every 650 I've ever seen has some drag on a warm clutch. Yamaha magically cleared up the clutch issue with the wonderful setup they came up with for the Viragos. No drag, easy to find neutral, very progressive. Too bad they don't interchange.
 
Thank you all for the feedback! I decided to service my 1983 Honda FT 500 thumper and get it ready to ride. Changed the oil, lubed the chain and topped the air pressure in the tires. It is ready to go. I do not know when i will be able to get the XS650 back to the shop. Maybe a couple of months and i will give an update.
 
TwoManyXS1BS: I ordered and have in my possession two new shiftdrum stopper plates "thought i needed two". When i get the bike back from the shop and the revving issues is solved i will be looking at the clutch. I will duplicate your experiment by hanging weights on the rear wheel! I am curious if i will have the same results. Will order new Barnett disks as well. This is going to take a while!
 
XSLeo: A pump oil can will feed a clamp on cable lube sleeve just as well as a spray can, maybe not as elegant as a tinfoil and electric tape funnel.
If that cable is a bit stiff I like to start with thin rust buster til it runs out the other end then pump in some oil. That danged cable will then dribble a stain on the side cover for frick'n EVER.
Take it to the bank; If the cable is HARD to pull when you start there is only ONE good place for it and it's not on a motorcycle! You CANNOT cure a cable with corrosion in it's guts, trust me I've tried. Even if it feels fine with no load it will bind when loaded. If you start looking you usually a find a spot where the sheath has worn away and water got in. The cable wire corrodes and expands, game over. I dissected one or two with an angle grinder.
 
It has been close to six months since the last update! Got the 80 XS650 back from the shop and they said the bike was too highly geared. The bike would not pull above 3000 rpm in third or fourth. Anyway the bike is back in my possession and i have decided to trouble shoot the problem. Checked compression and i am at 150 lbs in both cylinders. Compared to 90 lbs and 60 lbs before the Big Fin Kit 650cc was installed. So this is encouraging. Checked the timing and it is spot on at idle. The advance is working with the rev of the motor. Noticed that the breather hose is missing its wrap around spring and the hose is collapsed in two places. Maybe this is why both cam seals are leaking. 20170907_165143.jpg Replaced breather hose from
Mikes and here it is 20170907_151253.jpg I decide to re torque the head and ordered the Suzuki copper washers that 5twins recommends. Checked and adjusted the cam chain since it was a little loose. Readjusted the valves at .003 inlet and .006 exhaust and all looks good. Take the bike out on the 405 freeway and it barley climbs to 65 mph. The bike does not surge or sputter it like it hits a wall! Back to the shop i go. This bike ran just fine before the Big Fin Kit install so i am hesitant to condemn the carbs. The whole purpose to stay at 650cc with the kit was to avoid major headaches. All i wanted the bike to do was run cooler! Maybe the clutch would work better. I tried to start the bike the next day and the electric starter would not turn the motor over. This is strange so i check the volts at the battery at 3000 rpm and i am getting a little over 13 volts, this is not good. I ground the green wire from the rectifier/regulator and i am getting 14.4 volts at the battery while revving the motor. Check the alternator brushes and they are good.. over a 1/2 inch in length with even wear. Pull the rectifier/regulator combo and using the diagram that gggGary posted i found diode 5 is open. Ordered a used rectifier/regulator from Fleabay and i should have by Friday. I have my fingers crossed that this charging issue is the reason the bike will not pull. On a side note i switched to Rotella 15/40 and the clutch action is the best it has ever been. It is sluggish at first but the clutch action gets better as the bike warms up. I can find neutral from first by blipping the throttle and apply upward pressure to find neutral. This is a godsend. I have decided to leave the clutch alone and live with these results More to follow!
 
Your finding neutral problem is..." the clutch not releasing completely"... not going in far enough can you adjust it up a bit tighter and not have a slipping clutch as a result ? this isn't a cable issue guys.... he has a hydrolic Clutch now....adjust out all the free play you can get out of it
and see if that cures the neutral finding problem... i bet it will.
..... you know it is possible that you could have it too steep of geared... what size of sprocket is on the rear of your bike ? a 31 tooth is the smallest I have heard of anyone using BTW. my 82' has a stock 34 tooth
....
.....another possibility for the Revving issue as previously mentioned , is that the cam is one tooth off in timing. which would surely cause revving problems........unfortunately that means the valve cover has to come off to check it..... but it is a real good probability that that is the revving issue.
f.w.i.w.
Bob........
 
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