Pamco Question

truenorthmetal

truenorthmetal

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I just installed the Complete Pamco Electronic Ignition Kit, #14-0902...and I have a few questions if any one could help that would be great.

1 - I received 3 pins - one went in the cam on the right side to locate the advance unit. The other 2 sounded like they were destined for each end of the advance rod....but there were pins already in the advance rod.....so out of the 3 pins I received....I only used 1.

Does that sound right or did I miss a secret pin install...?

2 - I was reading Hughs install guide as well as Pete's.....Hugh's showed a rotor with 2 magnets, and he said with left cylinder at TDC....magnets would align horizontally.
My rotor has 4 magnets....and they did not align horizontally....? Looking further, I now know there are 90 deg rotors and 60 degree rotors....mine appears to be a 60.

Do I need a 60 or a 90, and do my magnets need to align horizontally while I am at TCD...?

Below is the PMA while left cyl is at TDC - yes I am positive !
Next pic is advance unit while at TDC
and rotor assembly while at TDC

photo2_zps6ca70fd6.jpg


photo3_zps8b5419a6.jpg


photo1_zps0541ecdd.jpg
 
truenorth...,

1. The advance rod will sometimes come from the factory without the pins installed so MikesXS sends along a couple of spares. Sometimes the pins fall out of the advance rod. Sometimes the installer will drop one or two of the pins on the floor where they just vanish.
2. Hughs instructions are for the 277 rephase version of the PAMCO which only has two magnets.
3. Your rotor is a 60 degree rotor with four magnets. It is keyed to the locating pin on the advance rod and will only install one way. If you get it flipped 180 degrees, it doesn't matter.
4. You will have to establish a timing mark at 15 degrees BTDC, which is the idle firing mark, not TDC. Other than using a degree wheel, the easiest way to do this is to temporarily re install your stock stator and rotor, even if it does not work. This is why I always recommend that you install the PAMCO before installing the PMA.
5. The PAMCO plate as shown in your pic is positioned about right for the engine to start.
6. I would suggest that you install a spark plug in that hole while working on the ignition right above the plug hole.
 
pamcopete said:
truenorth...,

1. The advance rod will sometimes come from the factory without the pins installed so MikesXS sends along a couple of spares. Sometimes the pins fall out of the advance rod. Sometimes the installer will drop one or two of the pins on the floor where they just vanish.
2. Hughs instructions are for the 277 rephase version of the PAMCO which only has two magnets.
3. Your rotor is a 60 degree rotor with four magnets. It is keyed to the locating pin on the advance rod and will only install one way. If you get it flipped 180 degrees, it doesn't matter.
4. You will have to establish a timing mark at 15 degrees BTDC, which is the idle firing mark, not TDC. Other than using a degree wheel, the easiest way to do this is to temporarily re install your stock stator and rotor, even if it does not work. This is why I always recommend that you install the PAMCO before installing the PMA.
5. The PAMCO plate as shown in your pic is positioned about right for the engine to start.
6. I would suggest that you install a spark plug in that hole while working on the ignition right above the plug hole.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the quick response Pete !!

1-3 - makes complete sense...thank you !!

4-6 - prob would have helped if I posted a pic of the engine cover with the timing marks huh

I also now know why you said to put a plug in - so the engine stays put when you are not at TDC right..?

EDIT: - Bigger reason; So I don't drop crap down into the cylinder !!!!!!!!!!!

anyway...another string of pics below showing 15 btdc and the associtated pics of the advance unit and ignition.....please let me know if that looks right to you Pete.

Thanks a million !

photo1_zpsbd26c4ac.jpg


photo2_zps6f1177af.jpg


photo3_zps2dead43f.jpg
 
truenorth,

Well, if you say so! I have no idea how you established those marks. The PAMCO plate looks to be in the correct position for starting. Don't forget the large washer and nut and be sure to cap the vacuum barbs before attempting to start or you will have to start another thread called "Installed new PAMCO engine won't start"

PS: How do you know you haven't already dropped something in the spark plug hole?
 
Thanks Pete...heres to REALLY hoping there is no "Pamco just installed, now bike is on fire" thread. :)

I promise to put the bolt back on and cap the vacuum barbs.......far as not dropping anything down the plug hole......I am meticulous to a fault and can say with complete confidence that there is nothing down there.

Funny story on the cir clicks on the advance unit though....when I took them off I actually did it in the bathroom.....as I figured if one flew off I would have a better chance of finding it. Both off......no issue. Put them in a cup.

Install - I realized I was not going to bring the motor into the bathroom.....so went up stairs and had lunch with the wife and kids........got up and said, "well I am off to the garage to shoot some cir clicks into oblivion"

Sat down on the stool in front of motor...glasses on....light strapped on head....tools ready....worked through hand movements to make sure I was positioned for stable fluid movement.

First one ............... steady...steady.............................PING. Heard it hit the calendar on the wall......land on the workbench. But no can find :banghead:

Off to Lordco..........amazingly they have them. Rest of install goes fine. Sweeping up later that night to clean up.......and there the little SOB is. Bout 10 feet away from where I was 100% it hit.

You should throw a few of those suckers in with the back up pins Pete :thumbsup:

Anyway....thanks !!
 
Truenorth...,

Well, I put the advancer in a large plastic bag when I remove the "C" clips. But, if it was I, I would at least stick a magnet on the end of a small diameter fuel line down the spark plug hole. It's all about risk management. Very small probability, but very large consequences.

Where is Maple Ridge, BC ? I spent some time in Prince George, Fernie, Cranbrook, Kamloops and Vancouver back in a former life working for BC Tel. BC is one of the most beautiful places in the whole world. The best vacation I ever had was camping out on Quadra Island and fishing for salmon with my little 16' boat and a Chrysler 35 HP engine. My daughter caught supper! We still talk about that today.
 
Ha ha..like the bag idea....and did bust a magnet out....AFTER i found it later.....its stuck to a magnet, stuck to the fridge in the garage.

Maple Ridge is about 30 miles out of Vancouver....I am originally from California, but been here for 7 years and it going to be tough to get me back to the US. Love it here !!

Kamloops has some interesting landscape hey ?

My dad is coming up for a visit soon...maybe I will look at Quadra as a place to take him fishing.

What were you doing with BC Tel..? Engineering capacity..?
 
Last edited:
fired right up !!!

was a little behind so I advanced it and now it is idling 10 deg before tdc. pretty smooth...no popping...and revs nice.

Question is this, not seeing any advance when I rev her. no movement at all. I dont have a tach so not sure but i have to be 2500 - 3000....should I not see some movement at that point..?

If so, where should trouble shooting start.......

http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Mike_Mcgarry/media/IMG_3285_zps7381908a.mp4.html
 
UPDATE;

checked advance weight with fingers - they would not budge !

loosened the nut on the left side to take apart for inspection - weights freed up and had nice movement.

tightened nut back up - weights froze again.

So I found a happy medium with how tight I had the nut in order to allow weights to move.

Started and can see it advance with the timing light when I rev motor. Seems to be running great.

Now my question is - why did that happen ? I guarentee that I did not tighten the crap out of that nut. Its a tiny nut and I do have some mechanical finesse .... I think it it tight enough that it wont come off....it is just a little less tight now.

Does that sound right...?
 
truenorthmetal said:
UPDATE;

checked advance weight with fingers - they would not budge !

loosened the nut on the left side to take apart for inspection - weights freed up and had nice movement.

tightened nut back up - weights froze again.

So I found a happy medium with how tight I had the nut in order to allow weights to move.

Started and can see it advance with the timing light when I rev motor. Seems to be running great.

Now my question is - why did that happen ? I guarentee that I did not tighten the crap out of that nut. Its a tiny nut and I do have some mechanical finesse .... I think it it tight enough that it wont come off....it is just a little less tight now.

Does that sound right...?
Click to expand...

The only way to be sure you have the correct torque on the 2 nuts, is to use a torque wrench. Use 7 ft-lbs or 84 in-lbs.
 
pamcopete said:
You can't just leave it like that as it will probably come loose. There are a number of things that can cause the binding that you are experiencing. I suggest that you review the installation instructions for the advancer to see what they are:

http://www.yamahaxs650.com/installing_the_advance_mechanism.htm
Click to expand...

retiredgentleman said:
The only way to be sure you have the correct torque on the 2 nuts, is to use a torque wrench. Use 7 ft-lbs or 84 in-lbs.
Click to expand...

Thank you both. I dont have a torque wrench that goes down that low, so off I go to source one of those.

The nut is currently pretty snug...it is probable that it wont back off, but I do understand that I need to torque it properly.

Guess I am more concerned that I can add about < 1/4 turn to that nut, and it starts to bind the weights on the other side...?

if that is normal then fine. But I did dissassemble and all seems right. Had one thought....the gaskets that are in between the head and the back half of the points pod (sorry I dont know what that is called)....but the gaskets are new and seem a bit beefy. Is it possible that I need to crush those down with more torque on those philip head bolts.........to give that advance rod some breathing room...? they seem pretty snug though.
 
truenorth,

Did you check the advancer installation instructions? Those beefy gaskets could also be a problem, although what that usually means is that the PAMCO plate will be pushed out and contact the PAMCO rotor. I don't think yoju can just "adjust" the torque on the nut because as the engine heats up the binding may return.
 
Seems to me you have something assembled wrong or an extra washer in place.

With the Pamco rotor installed on one end and the slotted disc installed on the other end of the ATU shaft, there should be a small amount of axial "end play", as the ATU shaft moves within the camshaft. Perhaps 0.015" to 0.035" end play.

The shoulders on the ATU shaft are what the Pamco rotor and slotted disc come hard against, so that dimension is fixed. The camshaft length is also a fixed dimension. The only way the camshaft could be longer is if the bushings at each end are not flush with the end of the camshaft. i.e. the bushings should not be proud of the camshaft ends.
 
retiredgentleman said:
The only way the camshaft could be longer is if the bushings at each end are not flush with the end of the camshaft. i.e. the bushings should not be proud of the camshaft ends.
Click to expand...

After reading this thread that was my initial thought that the bushings were not fully seated in the cam. But hey i am just an internet cowboy shooting off at the drop of a hat :guns: and I have been known to be wrong on many occasions. :laugh:
 
pamcopete said:
truenorth,

Did you check the advancer installation instructions? Those beefy gaskets could also be a problem, although what that usually means is that the PAMCO plate will be pushed out and contact the PAMCO rotor. I don't think yoju can just "adjust" the torque on the nut because as the engine heats up the binding may return.
Click to expand...

retiredgentleman said:
Seems to me you have something assembled wrong or an extra washer in place.

With the Pamco rotor installed on one end and the slotted disc installed on the other end of the ATU shaft, there should be a small amount of axial "end play", as the ATU shaft moves within the camshaft. Perhaps 0.015" to 0.035" end play.

The shoulders on the ATU shaft are what the Pamco rotor and slotted disc come hard against, so that dimension is fixed. The camshaft length is also a fixed dimension. The only way the camshaft could be longer is if the bushings at each end are not flush with the end of the camshaft. i.e. the bushings should not be proud of the camshaft ends.
Click to expand...

ippytattoo said:
After reading this thread that was my initial thought that the bushings were not fully seated in the cam. But hey i am just an internet cowboy shooting off at the drop of a hat :guns: and I have been known to be wrong on many occasions. :laugh:
Click to expand...

pamcopete said:
truenorth,

Did you check the advancer installation instructions?
Click to expand...

Thanks All...did not get too much done on it....do feel the bike runs great and the advance bind will be easy to find. Certainly agree that using the torque of that nut to control the engines ability to advance is not a nifty plan.

I think I no longer feel it is gasket related though. Thanks for thoughts RetiredGM, and I have 1/2 reviewed the install directions Pete....cam bushing on left side is not protuding and is in a good spot..........I have not looked at the 2 on the right....as I did not get to it today....but issue could live there.

Motor is coming out in a few days so i can prep frame and I will dive deeper then.

thanks for all the help - I will update soon ! :thumbsup:
 
Hi , I have an XS650 Street Tracker I have been working on for some time. I have removed all the stock wiring , electrical components etc. I want to start over with a complete Pamco system. What system do most recommend , and what is the smallest battery I can get away with ? I have no electric start.
 
A lot depends on just what your bike is. The 70-79 bikes used points and had the mechanical advancer. From 80 they used a TCI, this didn't use the mechanical advancer.
The easiest to install on the 80 up is the Pamco with E-advancer. On the 70-79 the basic Pamco is a good choice.
I don't recommend getting the kits with plugs. Mike's charges $10 each for the plugs, You can get them local for around $7. I use the Auto Lite AP63, just bought some off Ebay for $4.33 a pair. Well three pair for $12.99.
Leo
 

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