79F Standard Rescue in progress

[member28833]

Did you happen to notice what style camshaft you have?

Yes , thank you. I see there are more variables than I even considered now.
Both of my 78E and 79F seem to have the same brake components.
The longer version of the brake cam is used in both cases here. And that very odd shaped thick washer is also there. Now I realize that on the 79 I'm working on I've positioned the strange washer 180° rotated from my other. I have not yet reasoned out the asymmetric shape of this thick strange spacer but suspect my own work this moment. I'll get my hands dirty on this stuff again soon. Thanks, RT

 

[5twins]

That funky shaped spacer washer is a holdover from the earlier plates that had the electric brake wear switch in them. The beveled edge on the washer worked the plunger on the switch. Since your later plates don't have the electric switch anymore, it probably doesn't matter how you orient the beveled portion now.

I test fitted both of my Vesrah brake shoe sets into an extra 18" drum rear wheel I have. All the shoes fit into the drum fine. I didn't have them mounted on a brake plate, just loose. Maybe on a plate there could be an issue. That will be my next "test", mount a set on an extra brake plate I have and see if the whole assembly fits in the drum.

Studying all the shoes I have, the Vesrahs and some stockers, I did notice a small difference. It's not in the sizes but rather in the castings. The "L" and "R" stockers, as well as the "1" and "2" Vesrahs differ slightly. There are 3 round, peg-like bosses in the casting along the top edge that supports the brake shoe, but only on one side. You can see them here on the right shoe .....

They are present on the other shoe too but are on the bottom side. That means the set in this pic are not a matched "L" and "R" or "1" and "2". If they were, you'd see the bosses on both shoes facing up in the pic. I don't know what these things do or if they matter, or if they do, which way to face them (in towards the wheel or out towards the brake plate). I almost think they may not matter because the 2 spare brake plates I have with used shoes contain all "L" shoes. As far as I know, they are original and came from the factory that way.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Strange. Machine's Vesrah shoes in posts #94 and #110 do look different, without those posts.

My guess would be that those posts are part of the casting process, sprues that are later machined off...

 

[member28833]

Agreed, the "posts" are only on one side of the shoe casting. On both original & Vesrah brand shoes those marks "1" "2" or "L" "R" could be marks identifying which molding machine the shoe was molded in . They may have nothing to do with rear wheel use.
I couldn't imagine how those funky spacers could affect instalation.
I'll get 2 sets of wheels, backing plates, shoes, etc on the garage floor when I can and try to figure out what error in fitment is giving me trouble.
Ugh the simple troubles

 

[5twins]

Yes, those posts are only on one side, but the side differs depending on whether the shoe is a "L" or "R", "1" or "2". It seems like the shoes are a mirrored, matched set, as long as you have a "L" and "R", or in the case of the Vesrahs, a "1" and "2". If you have a mirrored, matched set, then the posts will end up on the same side of both shoes when installed. It may not matter as far as function goes but that begs the question then - why would Yamaha and Vesrah bother to cast and label two different shoes?

I have more shoes I plan to look at. As I mentioned, I think stock shoes work well. This is based on a used set in a '77 wheel I have. It has the best working brake of any wheel I have. It will be interesting to see if those shoes are a "L" and "R". As I also mentioned, 2 of the spare brake plates I have are "populated" with all "L" shoes. My TX750 brake plate appears to have two "R" shoes and it's performance is lacking.

 

[member28833]

This is interesting. I did notice on your pic that you had one shoe "up" and one shoe "down" just judging by those casting posts.
I was wondering if and how that shoe loading position could matter ?
Mirrored sets may or may not be necessary. Glad to have all this contributing to help resolve.
In my head I just cannot think of how I could have "misloaded" the Vesrah shoes ?
Kinda bugging me. But I'm at work again .. dammit

 

[gggGary]

If you put that "weird washer" on backwards the brake plate will not seat correctly to the wheel bearing and binds the rear wheel. Yup trial and error. The recess needs to fit around the cam on the shaft.

 

[member28833]

Yup, backwards being upside down ?
The rotational position of two 180° choices seems to not be of concern on the bikes I have..
Upside down , that would be quite an error..

 

[gggGary]

no, inside to outside....Once you look closely which it sounds like you have it's pretty obvious. The cam/angled slot ring fit to a plunger on the lining warning switch before that disappeared.

 

[member28833]

I am going to look closer, glasses on gloves on even !
Didn't realize what I was getting into..

 

[5twins]

Obviously, the cut-out slot on the funky spacer washer needs to face and fit onto the cam flats. I think you got that part right. See post #5 here for an explanation as to why and more info .....

http://www.xs650.com/threads/650-rear-drum-brake-plates.51046/

I think what you were asking about was the scalloped out portion on the bottom side of the spacer .....

As I mentioned, on your later '78 and '79 brake plates without the electric brake wear switch or the casting to hold it, I don't think it matters whether you orient that cut-out area up towards the top shoe or down towards the bottom shoe. On the older plates that have the electric switch, it does matter. The cut-out needs to face downward towards the bottom shoe. Here's the switch pin in an older plate that it needs to operate .....

 

[member28833]

While at work a guy can still get something done on his bike !
This JB Weld strainer fix is going so well now that I may not even attach my extra screen that fits so fine. We'll see tomorrow.
Still curious as to how many other guys repair their screens or just buy new ones?
It has taken drying time each step of glueing and rotating seams.
-RT

 

[Mailman]

Still curious as to how many other guys repair their screens or just buy new ones?

I still have not had one that was torn, but I would repair it if it was. We’re guys! We love fixing junk!

 

[member28833]

We’re guys! We love fixing junk!

Thank you so much for the reality check Bob ! Yes, We do
Now I'm back onto my Brake adventure and it is a Lot of junk lol..
-R

 

[member28833]

As noted for maybe a whole page above, there were questions as to how or why my Vesrah brake shoes seemingly did not fit my 79F XS Standard rear wheel components.
Both a 78E rear wheel contributed fitment check components as well as 79F components.
It did really bother me for the day at work as to the reasons.
Now at home, I've brought up two wheels, two brake backing plates, 3 sets of shoes and some soft springs from the hardware store for easy shoe changing in the living room
After many attempts with combinations of backing plates, wheels, and shoes, I found that the Original shoes fit ANYWAY you want but, the Vesrah shoes in my possession do not fit. The brake drum will not quite clear the shoe radius.
I am very suspicious of the casting placement of the pivot holes which do not seem to be machined at all ?
Or the cam flat end of the shoes which have the steel "cap" over the casting.
Regardless of where the error is, the overall width of the shoes at about centerline mounted is over 7" and more like 7.070
The stock shoes I have are used but one set is very close to original size (appearing) as I have never measured new original shoes.
So, I am relieved of a guilty conscience. This time is wasn't my carelessness or ignorance to blame .. hallelujah!
I may inspect shoes at work tomorrow with real good measuring equipment to compare heights, radius , etc.. or I may just move on.
Thank you everybody for contributing helpfulness !
- Randy

 

[5twins]

That's all very odd. Close to fitting but no cigar apparently. According to the shop manual specs, the rear drum diameter is 180mm (7.09") and so are the shoes. Vesrah specs their shoes at a 179mm diameter, so there should be room to spare. Did you inspect the ends on the shoes that fit to the round post for casting flaws (lump, bumps, etc.)? Something that might not allow them to seat into the round post fully? They don't look fully seated in your pics, especially the shoe on the left.

 

[member28833]

Did you inspect the ends on the shoes that fit to the round post for casting flaws (lump, bumps, etc.)

Yes, I am very suspicious of the pivot. However the shoe pivot radius does seem to fit correctly to the pivot . I even used magnification there.
My 12" inch caliper battery died of course, so I could only approximate 7.070 with a scale. It's probably even more.
The other end of the shoe, the flat appears correct but maybe is too tall ? Increasing shoe size ? (dia width)
Any way, these shoes came with the bike . In the box clean but I have no idea as to age or origin..
I'll keep em here for a bit. You can have them if you want to study further even.
The original used shoes feel fine enough for this bike to get rolling on .
-R

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I'll double-down on the pivot. Machine's pics show a larger gap between the shoes at the pivot than 5twins' pic (post #117), both with the new Vesrah shoes.


Maybe y'all could also compare the cam thickness?


As it stands, these new shoes appear to be excellent candidates for re-arcing, and for oversized drums that have been turned. I just ordered a set.

There's also the EBC-514 shoes...

 

[5twins]

The shoes in my post 117 and 125 aren't Vesrahs, they're originals, but yes, they do seem to fit in nicer on that round post.

In my opinion, original shoes are just fine and I really like them. I looked at my "best working" brake earlier today, a '77 Standard wheel, and found it had two "R" shoes in it. Guess that shoots down the theory that a "L" and "R" matched set would work best, lol. I'm going to have to install my new Vesrah shoes on some brake plates and try to fit them into a wheel. I really hope they work because they look like really nice shoes. Vesrah is a well known, quality name.

 

[member28833]

As it stands, these new shoes appear to be excellent candidates for re-arcing, and for oversized drums that have been turned. I just ordered a set.

Now that's Lemonade out of Lemons !
Really like that TwoManyXS1Bs