1980 XS650 H/Special II - can't get both oil drain bolts out

[sac02052]

Recently acquired the bike and going through the usual stuff for a VJM. Not my first resurrection, but my first XS650.

Since this bike has two oil drain blots, one attached to the sump and one behind it, how important is it to get both out?

I was able to get the forward one out (the one attached to/below the sump), but the rearward one is being difficult. PO did not have any crush or copper washers.

Also, the sump plate itself is also stuck after removing the six 10mm bolts. Any suggestions?

 

[xjwmx]

My rear plug was stuck for years and I finally got it out using the factory wrench and a 5 lb hammer. The factory wrench is that tough. When I had the engine apart I realized the rear plug is in a place where thick sludge accumulates. So I suggest removing it before the front and letting the quick flow try to wash some of that out. If you drain with the front plug only, most of the oil does come out, leaves about a cup in. Impact wrench would also get that plug out if you put the bike on its side. Probably even 1/2" electric impact.

The stuck filter plate, tap it lightly on the side with a hammer. If all the bolts are out there's nothing holding it except for the gasket. Prepare to find sealer on the gasket and having to scrape all that off (strong paint stripper, not the orange kind, will help).

 

[gggGary]

6 point 27mm socket helps save the hex on the plug. socket and a breaker bar, pile up some wood blocks to hold it on the plug then the biggest maul handy and a smart smack. I like a chunk of hardwood on the front of the sump plate, hit that with the hammer.

 

[nj1639]

Have a heavy weight assistant hold the bike in place, or tell the missus that you'll be back in 15 minutes and if not, come out and see why.

 

[5twins]

Don't put the plugs back in without a new or good seal washer. That's why they get so stuck in the first place - worn out (totally flattened) or no seal washer.

 

[sac02052]

Thanks all. Sounds like it's better to get both drain bolts out, but not a deal breaker if you can't.

All the local Ace/Do it HW stores carry the dreaded 12pt sockets, so I'll try HD tomorrow.

The sump plate finally came out after a few hammer taps. Looks like the original gasket was still in place, albeit torn in a few places. I'll add a new sump gasket and drain washers to the ever expanding shopping cart.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

More war stories.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/drain-plugs-locked.45743/#post-457783

 

[5twins]

I usually end up impacting the really stuck ones out. But, I have the tools for that, and I realize everyone does not. I try hammering on the long extension 1st but it usually doesn't work. I grab the B-D electric impact .....

This thing generates something like 230 ft/lbs of torque, quite good and better than many of the cheapo air impacts. HF make a cheap copy, about $40 (on sale) .....

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-heavy-duty-electric-impact-wrench-68099.html

 

[XSLeo]

When installing the sump plate, or most any gasket, DON"T use gasket sealer. This "glue's" the gasket to both the sump plate and engine case. I use a thin coat of anti-seize or grease on both sides if gasket. This allows the gasket to be reused several times.
The stock bolts on the sump plate are designed with w weak head. If over tightened the head breaks of before the threads strip in the engine case. If you replace with new hardware store bolts be very careful to not over tighten. Get and use a inch-pound torque wrench. 60-80 inch-pounds.
The spec calls for 5-7 foot-pounds but most foot pound torque wrenches can't accurately be used at such low amounts. inch-pound torque wrenches work well at these amounts.
Leo

 

[sac02052]

UPDATE - For posterity or other people searching for info, here's the end result for me.

The front drain plug came out while the bike was on the lift using a open end wrench, rubber mallet, and arm strength. It did not have a copper or crush washer.

The rear plug required extra effort with a 25" breaker bar, 6pt socket, and liberal quantities of PB blaster. First I tried the boards under the breaker bar suggestion, but that wasn't enough. For me, the successful process was to lay the bike on the grass (wife wasn't home) and lean on the breaker bar being careful to keep socket on the head. It did have a copper washer, but was definitely harder to get loose, so I may have been the first person to take it out in 37 years.

The sump oil filter is in good shape, but appears to be the original so I'll likely replace. The gasket on the sump plate tore in multiple places on removal and will require the usual scraping and chemicals.

The smaller filter on the clutch cover is in decent shape, but did not have the crescent shaped gasket, so I'l get one. The circular gasket on the cover had a small tear near one of the mounting holes, but the rest of the gasket is OK. I'm tempted to re-use rather than replace so I don't have to do another scraping session. I still have flashbacks from an xs850 with a petrified head gasket.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[5twins]

Use paint stripper on the old gaskets, it will pretty much melt them away. It usually takes a couple applications. Apply, let soak for 10 minutes or so, scrape off softened portion of gasket, re-apply, etc. It will remove all of the old gasket and any sealer that was used, and it will all come off with just very gentle scraping. This means very little risk of damaging the gasket sealing surfaces.

Here's another gasket Yamaha chose to "glue" in place with gasket sealer, the one on the back of the points/advance housing. First application of paint stripper and soak .....

..... then the softened portion of gasket scraped off .....

...... then after another application of paint stripper and soak, most of the rest of the gasket lifts right off .....

A few more dabs of stripper on the little pieces left will finish the job.

 

[sac02052]

thanks. I didn't try paint stripper on the previous work since it was a cylinder head and I didn't want it to get inside the engine. Gravity will help keep chemicals out in this case.

 

[sac02052]

Update#2 and a question - All the old petrified gaskets are now removed.Best option for me was PB Blaster, scraping, and a scotchbrite metal finisher pad.

One question - If I'm using the mikesxs "copper" colored gaskets, am I supposed to torque the drain plugs down until the gaskets flatten, or do they retain the circular cross section? As you might guess, I'm a little hesitant to over tighten those plugs again.

if no one here knows I'll go easy on them and check with mikexs tomorrow/Monday.

 

[fredintoon]

Update#2 and a question - All the old petrified gaskets are now removed.Best option for me was PB Blaster, scraping, and a scotchbrite metal finisher pad.
One question - If I'm using the mikesxs "copper" colored gaskets, am I supposed to torque the drain plugs down until the gaskets flatten, or do they retain the circular cross section? As you might guess, I'm a little hesitant to over tighten those plugs again.
if no one here knows I'll go easy on them and check with mikexs tomorrow/Monday.

Hi sac,
tighten the plugs to the recommended torque and the seals will flatten perfectly.
They are called "crush washers", eh?

 

[5twins]

Yes, do them sort of like a spark plug - finger tight then another 1/8 to 1/4 turn or so to only partially flatten the gasket. They'll seal and you'll be able to re-use them several more times before they're totally flattened out and need replacement. One more thing I'll mention, if you examine the seal washer you'll find a seam on one side where the 2 layers of copper overlap. Face that seam towards the steel drain plug, not the alloy engine block or sump plate. That seam can mar up the alloy sealing surface, cut into it.

 

[sac02052]

thx. unfortunately I already put them on to the spec'd torque and filled the oil, without looking for the seam. Guess i have a 50/50 chance on both.

They did partially flatten at the 30 ft-lb torque spec, but not completely.

 

[hogtyed]

6 point 27mm socket helps save the hex on the plug. socket and a breaker bar, pile up some wood blocks to hold it on the plug then the biggest maul handy and a smart smack. I like a chunk of hardwood on the front of the sump plate, hit that with the hammer.

This! This is exactly what I had to do in order to remove my 2nd oil plug. Then get some new crush washers and torque per Yamaha's specifications.