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74 Running Super Rich
- Thread starter hippiedreads
- Start date
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
I called the local autozone and they said they didn't even have a cross reference number??? That's really odd, maybe I'll go in and do it in person and see what turns up from that. But then I wasted my time ordering 4 new plugs online.
Ehh can never have to many plugs laying around for future use.
Ehh can never have to many plugs laying around for future use.
Their web site says they have them .....
http://www.autozone.com/miscellaneo...spark-plug/ngk-standard-spark-plug/509875_0_0
http://www.autozone.com/miscellaneo...spark-plug/ngk-standard-spark-plug/509875_0_0
HippieD, give this a try.
Turn fuel off.
Drain fuel from bowls, replace drain plugs.
Remove spark plugs.
Hold full throttle, kick thru several times, no ignition.
Release throttle.
Replace sparkplugs, plug boots.
Leave fuel off, attempt starting.
Note if there's any fire attempt at all.
Turn fuel ON for 5 seconds, only, then turn off.
Leave fuel off, attempt starting.
Note if there's any fire attempt at all.
If it fires up, turn fuel ON, note any run differences...
Turn fuel off.
Drain fuel from bowls, replace drain plugs.
Remove spark plugs.
Hold full throttle, kick thru several times, no ignition.
Release throttle.
Replace sparkplugs, plug boots.
Leave fuel off, attempt starting.
Note if there's any fire attempt at all.
Turn fuel ON for 5 seconds, only, then turn off.
Leave fuel off, attempt starting.
Note if there's any fire attempt at all.
If it fires up, turn fuel ON, note any run differences...
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
5twins, I looked them up online while in class right after I read your last comment. I'm not going to say anything bad about the guys but only one in the store has ever struck me as intelligent. I'm in line now and I've checked they've got some on hand.
TwoMany I'm not rocking a tank at the moment just hand feeding it with a paper filter in the line. I'll drain the carbs though and give it a good few kicks with the throttle wide open and plugs pulled. When you say put plugs back and kick to see if it wants to fire. What will this indicate if it does fire?
Side Note: you're local autozone might have the sparkplugs listed as BP7ES NON-AUTOMOTIVE. They are $2 cheaper than the standard BP7ES.
TwoMany I'm not rocking a tank at the moment just hand feeding it with a paper filter in the line. I'll drain the carbs though and give it a good few kicks with the throttle wide open and plugs pulled. When you say put plugs back and kick to see if it wants to fire. What will this indicate if it does fire?
Side Note: you're local autozone might have the sparkplugs listed as BP7ES NON-AUTOMOTIVE. They are $2 cheaper than the standard BP7ES.
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
Alright guys got home and realized I made a big no no but leave my key on all day while at school. Usually I'll pull the main fuse I have as a back up but didn't do that either... so I went ahead and turned it all off changed the spark plug and boots then turned the choke open key on and gave the lightest little kick and what would you have it, fired right up no hesitation. Let it run for about 20-30 seconds then kicked the choke off bike ran smooth for about 5 mins then I noticed left cylinder started missing occasionally. Let it run for another 30 seconds then killed it. Pulled the plugs and they look like this.
Left is left cylinder right is right. Going to drain bowls now and do as TwoMany suggested.
Left is left cylinder right is right. Going to drain bowls now and do as TwoMany suggested.
Attachments
Well, now that you got it to fire up, don't bother with my goofy routine, you're past that now. What's left is to dial down the richness...
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
TwoMany, I did exactly as directed and no start with bowls empty, with gas and no choke it almost fired first kick, fired and ran on the second kick for about 3 mins then died out while I was feeding it gas. Pulled plugs and left one was black with soot.
5twins, I've got the right pilot jets.
Tomorrow I've got time between work and class so I'll go buy 42.5 pilots and see how that goes.
5twins, I've got the right pilot jets.
Tomorrow I've got time between work and class so I'll go buy 42.5 pilots and see how that goes.
There is a critical area of the carb body and float bowl fitment that *could* admit unwanted fuel/air, and that is the center section. You'll want to ensure that the sealing surfaces are flat, the raised ridge isn't badly damaged, the corners where the 4 screws fit aren't bent inward, and that the gasket isn't hard and uncompliant.
Here, I'm testing flatness of the body/bowl fit by crushing a piece of candlewax:
You can smear a very thin coat of grease on both sides of the bowl gasket, use a toothpick to remove any grease from gasket holes and edges. Then, if it runs differently, that could confirm a sealing problem in there...
Here, I'm testing flatness of the body/bowl fit by crushing a piece of candlewax:
You can smear a very thin coat of grease on both sides of the bowl gasket, use a toothpick to remove any grease from gasket holes and edges. Then, if it runs differently, that could confirm a sealing problem in there...
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Your problem seems to be isolated to the left cylinder and/or carb. I'm not sure changing both pilot jets is the way to fix this but I guess you could try. The problem could be something like 2M is alluding to, something physically wrong with that left carb.
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
Isn't what 2M is asking about is the needle pilot that 5twins suggested I check fittment of? There is no wiggle room in it and is fit firmly, I would have to really get a good grip on it to remove it and I'd be afraid to damage a part that is no longer available nor is there any good replacement parts for it. The gasket is a little stiff but definitely not unreasonable hard. I will use the candle wax trick trick on around the needle pilot but ultimately it just sounds like I need to order a not so well fitting rebuild kit and salvage as many of the original hardware as possible.
If the needle jet isn't fully seated, it'll keep the float bowl from fully seating there in the middle, and that area could leak.
Method I used to remove stubborn needle jets involved solvents, time, and gentle persuasion from a fitted brass punch. This album pic, plus the preceeding 3:
http://www.xs650.com/media/71xs1b-c...ic-punch-with-a-3mm-or-1-8-shaft.22901/#media
Method I used to remove stubborn needle jets involved solvents, time, and gentle persuasion from a fitted brass punch. This album pic, plus the preceeding 3:
http://www.xs650.com/media/71xs1b-c...ic-punch-with-a-3mm-or-1-8-shaft.22901/#media
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hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
So that process made everything worse and now the bike tries to kick over the first time or two then doesn't do anything at all. Cleaned everything thuroughly and reinstalled and doing the same exact thing as I just described. Gotta put it down for awhile so I can cool off a bit because this thing is really pissing me off.
Might have a bad float. You could switch them, reset float heights, clear the plugs and cylinders, attempt restart. See if the rich condition swaps sides...
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
So everything that's happened. Bike starts runs but fouling both plugs. Then bikes only foulin left plug. Battery completely dies and switch to capacitor and attempt kicking, fires up and runs for a couple mins and left plug is fouled. Remove left carb and apply grease to both sides of the gasket and replace it then cleaning out all passageways with a tooth pick. Reinstall carbs and kick the bike over and all I get is one little hit out of either cylinder. Turning over acting like it's going to run but then the other cylinder doesn't fire. Pull carb again thoroughly clean it and gasket and reinstall everything and now nothing at all. After about 5 kicks I pull the plugs and see that they are wet with gas so I clean them and let them dry. Once dried put them back in and get nothing at all after 5 kicks and pull plugs to see that they are fouled with gas again, both. Pulled carbs again to double check everything and put it back together and same damn thing. Mind you that at one point it would start on first kick every single time (with battery) and started once with the capacitor on one kick. I'm lightway baffled at this problem and it only seems to be going downhill.
hippiedreads
XS650 Enthusiast
Bought a battery and hooked it up. Bike will fire and run for about 5 seconds now and only when the choke is not on. If choke is on it has no response at all and if it's running then I flip the choke on quick the bike either dies or doesn't respond to the choke being opened.
Yep, you've confirmed that it's rich.
Maybe it's time to dig a little deeper.
The "clear tube method" will let you know where the actual fuel level is.
This is the current fuel level on my carbs, about 2mm below the flange:
The BS38 choke/enrichner system:
Its functionality be removed from the left carb by taping over the enrichner surface, as shown here, directly onto the carb body, under the enrichner gasket.
Maybe it's time to dig a little deeper.
The "clear tube method" will let you know where the actual fuel level is.
This is the current fuel level on my carbs, about 2mm below the flange:
The BS38 choke/enrichner system:
Its functionality be removed from the left carb by taping over the enrichner surface, as shown here, directly onto the carb body, under the enrichner gasket.
The pilot system delivers fuel to the 3 transition (bypass, progressive) ports, and to the idle mix screw/port. Its functionality can be removed by taping over the pilot fuel delivery channel, directly onto the float bowl, as shown here:
These should help you to isolate the source of the over-rich condition.
During testing, if you don't get any sign of firing after a few kickthru's, stop and pull the plugs. If they're wet/fouled, it's still rich. They'll need to be cleaned/dried, and the cylinders cleared, before the next test. No need to wear out yourself and/or your starter with prolonged start attempts...
During testing, if you don't get any sign of firing after a few kickthru's, stop and pull the plugs. If they're wet/fouled, it's still rich. They'll need to be cleaned/dried, and the cylinders cleared, before the next test. No need to wear out yourself and/or your starter with prolonged start attempts...
