A set of these hole punches make it easy.
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
'80 Special Refit
- Thread starter Solomoriah
- Start date
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
You guys have a way of scaring a fellow, you know?
Yeah, I know - but don’t be scared. Just get at it and learn - you can do it!
Pete
Pete
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
Yeah, I see that it's a common problem. I'm heartened to see that no one has admitted to breaking the sump plate in the process of removing the plug... implies it's not likely to happen.
One of the guys on that thread suggests vice grips, and another says not to use them for various reasons. I do agree... but I removed the oil filter bolt from my Honda with a pair of vice grips and a rubber mallet, and never popped the vice grips off. Of course, I fully planned to replace the silly stock unit with a 14mm head with an aftermarket bolt having a 17mm head, so I didn't care if I damaged the head of the stocker. Just saying, though, in some circumstances vice grips work pretty well.
But the oil plugs on the XS are just too big for that, and I don't want to replace them if I don't have to.
Ordered those crush washers from Amazon, then went to town yesterday to get a socket. Harbor Freight had them only in a large set, which would be cost-effective only if I ever expected to use any of those other sockets (but as far as I can figure, I don't). So I went to two different farm stores, and not only did they not have 27mm sockets at all, I couldn't find a 1 1/16" socket in 6 point either. I didn't have time to cross town to Home Depot and Menards to check them, and in disgust I went to Amazon and ordered the first five-star unit I could find: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UM667P4
One of the guys on that thread suggests vice grips, and another says not to use them for various reasons. I do agree... but I removed the oil filter bolt from my Honda with a pair of vice grips and a rubber mallet, and never popped the vice grips off. Of course, I fully planned to replace the silly stock unit with a 14mm head with an aftermarket bolt having a 17mm head, so I didn't care if I damaged the head of the stocker. Just saying, though, in some circumstances vice grips work pretty well.
But the oil plugs on the XS are just too big for that, and I don't want to replace them if I don't have to.
Ordered those crush washers from Amazon, then went to town yesterday to get a socket. Harbor Freight had them only in a large set, which would be cost-effective only if I ever expected to use any of those other sockets (but as far as I can figure, I don't). So I went to two different farm stores, and not only did they not have 27mm sockets at all, I couldn't find a 1 1/16" socket in 6 point either. I didn't have time to cross town to Home Depot and Menards to check them, and in disgust I went to Amazon and ordered the first five-star unit I could find: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UM667P4
Two steps forward and one step back.....
T’was ever thus.
T’was ever thus.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
Actually the socket thing was more along the lines of "lots of steps, but none forward" until I gave up and ordered from Amazon.
They want you to buy locally, but if they don't have what I want, how the H3ll am I going to do that?
They want you to buy locally, but if they don't have what I want, how the H3ll am I going to do that?
The hassles you’ve had are odd in my view. Our version of Harbor Freight is called Princess Automotive (VERY similar) but they carry all of the big size metric sockets as open stock. So, you can buy a 25, a 26, a 27 and then skip to a 30mm if you like. They typically cost around $6-8 CDN and some are even available in both 1/2” and 3/4” drive.
For the really stuck plugs, I just grab the impact, lol. And I've encountered quite a few really stuck ones. Sometimes the plugs require a little file work before the 6 point socket will slip on due to all the abuse they've suffered in the past. Some are pretty beat up but I haven't encountered one yet that I haven't been able to "restore" to functioning order. Good thing too, because replacements are like $15. I think that money is much better spent on a spare used sump plate and filter assembly off of eBay. Having a clean spare on hand will greatly speed up oil changes.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
Just a little update, to keep track of progress.
I expect the 27mm 6 point impact socket I ordered will arrive today, and I'll be able to get those plugs loose. I spent hours looking for a good deal on the gasket for the sump plate, and had finally decided the smart thing to do is make my own... and while looking for the correct thickness of gasket material to use, I found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/312184856199
Just what the doctor ordered. So I ordered one too...
While waiting on that, I decided to see what I can do about the squishy front brake on my bike. I started a separate thread, to discuss what might be wrong:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/squishy-brakes.52832/
Got just what I needed there too. According to the suggestions, either it's the rubber brake lines (which surely need replacing anyway) or there's a bubble stuck at the top of the brake line. So I did a bunch more parts research and ordered these items:
Brake line: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B073Z8GZSC/
Banjo bolt with bleeder: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DSH5N9F/
The brake line has pretty nice reviews; the bolt I'm taking a chance on, but for under $5.00 it seems like a good bet. If it doesn't feel like it's good enough quality to use, I just won't.
Once again, waiting for parts...
I expect the 27mm 6 point impact socket I ordered will arrive today, and I'll be able to get those plugs loose. I spent hours looking for a good deal on the gasket for the sump plate, and had finally decided the smart thing to do is make my own... and while looking for the correct thickness of gasket material to use, I found this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/312184856199
Just what the doctor ordered. So I ordered one too...
While waiting on that, I decided to see what I can do about the squishy front brake on my bike. I started a separate thread, to discuss what might be wrong:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/squishy-brakes.52832/
Got just what I needed there too. According to the suggestions, either it's the rubber brake lines (which surely need replacing anyway) or there's a bubble stuck at the top of the brake line. So I did a bunch more parts research and ordered these items:
Brake line: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B073Z8GZSC/
Banjo bolt with bleeder: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DSH5N9F/
The brake line has pretty nice reviews; the bolt I'm taking a chance on, but for under $5.00 it seems like a good bet. If it doesn't feel like it's good enough quality to use, I just won't.
Once again, waiting for parts...
I check eBay from time to time for gaskets and eventually, I usually find some for a good price, so do keep checking. I'll look them up on a Yamaha parts site to find out the new price, then I can judge the eBay price. That sump gasket goes for around $10 from Yamaha so $5 or $6 is an OK deal. That's a gasket you should have extras of. If you install it without gasket sealer (just oil it), it should "release" easily at the next removal and you should be able to get several oil and filter cleaning services out of it before it needs replacing. Goop it up with sealer and you'll only get one use from it.
The green colored Athena version that Mike's sells is reasonably priced and has worked well for me, better I dare say than original Yamaha ones. Something to keep in mind if you need to tack a few small items on an order from them.
The green colored Athena version that Mike's sells is reasonably priced and has worked well for me, better I dare say than original Yamaha ones. Something to keep in mind if you need to tack a few small items on an order from them.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
The one I ordered comes from some guy(s) with an automatic gasket cutter. If it works well, I'll order a couple of spares from them.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
HOKAY DOKAY. So tonight, it being the first non-sweltering, non-raining day in a few weeks, I set out to change the oil in my bike.
Long story short:
With that said, here's the rundown:
First, I put my new 27mm impact socket on the large 1/2" drive breaker I borrowed from my mother-in-law, then used a hydraulic car jack and a block of wood to hold it firmly in place. A few whacks with my maul was all it took for each plug. The stock crush washers were very, very crushed, but the new ones fit perfectly.
Got a few bits of the crud in the picture above out in the oil at this point, but the big bit had to wait until I pulled the sump plate. The old gasket was not stuck too firmly to the engine cases (good news) but came off of the sump plate in pieces (bad news). Any suggestions how to get the last bits off?
The sump filter is blown out, too, but so neatly that I didn't immediately realize it was blown out. There is a T-shaped split, vertical up to the top of the filter and then about 10mm left and right.
Given that I'm looking at more involved repairs, I oiled up the new gasket and reassembled everything gently; I'll be taking it all apart when I figure out whether I'm repairing or replacing that sump filter, so no point in tightening things up fully.
The engine didn't make any sort of racket running, but obviously that chain guide has given up some of its friction surface. I understand there are no more Yamaha units to be had, so I'm down to Mike's for the part. That, and a full gasket set, of course.
Incidentally, the computer-cut sump plate gasket I got from eBay is just a bit large, but not large enough that I think it won't seal. Scaling is something that's always tricky when computer cutting.
Long story short:
With that said, here's the rundown:
First, I put my new 27mm impact socket on the large 1/2" drive breaker I borrowed from my mother-in-law, then used a hydraulic car jack and a block of wood to hold it firmly in place. A few whacks with my maul was all it took for each plug. The stock crush washers were very, very crushed, but the new ones fit perfectly.
Got a few bits of the crud in the picture above out in the oil at this point, but the big bit had to wait until I pulled the sump plate. The old gasket was not stuck too firmly to the engine cases (good news) but came off of the sump plate in pieces (bad news). Any suggestions how to get the last bits off?
The sump filter is blown out, too, but so neatly that I didn't immediately realize it was blown out. There is a T-shaped split, vertical up to the top of the filter and then about 10mm left and right.
Given that I'm looking at more involved repairs, I oiled up the new gasket and reassembled everything gently; I'll be taking it all apart when I figure out whether I'm repairing or replacing that sump filter, so no point in tightening things up fully.
The engine didn't make any sort of racket running, but obviously that chain guide has given up some of its friction surface. I understand there are no more Yamaha units to be had, so I'm down to Mike's for the part. That, and a full gasket set, of course.
Incidentally, the computer-cut sump plate gasket I got from eBay is just a bit large, but not large enough that I think it won't seal. Scaling is something that's always tricky when computer cutting.
For easy removal of old stuck gaskets, you can use paint stripper. "Paint" it on, let it soak in for 10 minutes or so, and gently scrape off the portion(s) of gasket that have softened. It will often take several applications to get it all softened up and removed but you avoid the risk of damaging the sealing surfaces through aggressive scraping. The softened portions of gasket pretty much lift right off.
Many of us patch these torn filters with J.B. Weld. New filters are available but they tear out just the same. You'd go broke having to buy a new filter at every oil change.
Many of us patch these torn filters with J.B. Weld. New filters are available but they tear out just the same. You'd go broke having to buy a new filter at every oil change.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
Thanks for the tip about gasket removal... never would have thought of paint stripper. Would acetone work as well? I have that on hand.
Fixing the filter doesn't concern me much... lots of threads on the forum about doing that, and fabricating a bit out of sheet metal and gluing it on with JB weld is definitely in my wheelhouse. It's tearing down the top end to replace that stupid cam chain guide that I'm not looking forward to... I've never done that before. The bike runs well and does not apparently burn oil, and after retorquing the head it's oil-tight. Annoys me to have to risk screwing any of that up.
Can I replace the guide without pulling the cylinders completely? Pulling the head and reinstalling it, that I'm pretty sure about, but I've never had to get pistons and rings back into cylinders before (nor even ever seen it done in person). I assume there's a chance of an oil leak at the cylinder base if I don't pull it all the way down and replace gaskets and seals.
Gah. People keep telling me I can do this stuff, but it's all well outside my experience. I do computer programming for a living... no moving parts, no messes on the floor if I screw up, and I can make backup copies of anything I think I might be about to break before I try it. The real world is not so forgiving.
Fixing the filter doesn't concern me much... lots of threads on the forum about doing that, and fabricating a bit out of sheet metal and gluing it on with JB weld is definitely in my wheelhouse. It's tearing down the top end to replace that stupid cam chain guide that I'm not looking forward to... I've never done that before. The bike runs well and does not apparently burn oil, and after retorquing the head it's oil-tight. Annoys me to have to risk screwing any of that up.
Can I replace the guide without pulling the cylinders completely? Pulling the head and reinstalling it, that I'm pretty sure about, but I've never had to get pistons and rings back into cylinders before (nor even ever seen it done in person). I assume there's a chance of an oil leak at the cylinder base if I don't pull it all the way down and replace gaskets and seals.
Gah. People keep telling me I can do this stuff, but it's all well outside my experience. I do computer programming for a living... no moving parts, no messes on the floor if I screw up, and I can make backup copies of anything I think I might be about to break before I try it. The real world is not so forgiving.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
... so I'm looking for guidance on the filter repair, and I found this thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/oil-change.26573/page-2
At the end, azman857 and gggGary both indicate that the owner of the bike should feel free to ride it, despite the bits of plastic in the sump, with a warning to pay attention to any noises that might indicate total failure of the guide. Considering that I found about the same crud in my oil, and my bike sounds fine, I'm thinking I might just go that way myself. I just need to fix the filter and I'm in business, at least until the rest of the guide plastic crumbles.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/oil-change.26573/page-2
At the end, azman857 and gggGary both indicate that the owner of the bike should feel free to ride it, despite the bits of plastic in the sump, with a warning to pay attention to any noises that might indicate total failure of the guide. Considering that I found about the same crud in my oil, and my bike sounds fine, I'm thinking I might just go that way myself. I just need to fix the filter and I'm in business, at least until the rest of the guide plastic crumbles.
You should be OK running it as it is for a while. I went a couple seasons and several thousand miles before tearing into mine. It eventually developed a loud tick at start-ups that prompted me to go into it. This should give you the time to shop around for the needed parts and maybe find some good deals. Unfortunately, pretty much every one of these needs this work done to them because of their age.
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
Yeah, I was expecting to find some bits in the oil, honestly, but it'll be better for me if I can go a while before doing the work. My CB650 needs a top end job due to several oil leaks, and apparently retorquing isn't as effective for them as for the XS650... and as I've said, I have my XS oil-tight. I may be uncertain about working on the XS, but I'm certain I *don't* want to tear into the CB, so I'm saving my pennies to get it done professionally next year.
I really wish I knew some guys around me who were into vintage Japanese bikes... I'd love to have a chance to work alongside someone who knows what he's doing, instead of trying to figure it out from forums and Youtube.
I really wish I knew some guys around me who were into vintage Japanese bikes... I'd love to have a chance to work alongside someone who knows what he's doing, instead of trying to figure it out from forums and Youtube.
Agree with 5Twins.
The guide on my ‘76 Standard (the horrifying Lucille
) totally failed (NO plastic on the metal shoe - NONE) and when I stripped the engine, she showed signs of oil starvation and overheating - BUT - even after the guide totally failed, she still started readily, ran well and produced decent power.
So - the failure mode on that front timing chain guide is relatively benign:
If you leave it too long, you’ll start getting a lot of metal in your oil and that will damage critical engine and transmission components - eventually.
Pete
The guide on my ‘76 Standard (the horrifying Lucille
) totally failed (NO plastic on the metal shoe - NONE) and when I stripped the engine, she showed signs of oil starvation and overheating - BUT - even after the guide totally failed, she still started readily, ran well and produced decent power. So - the failure mode on that front timing chain guide is relatively benign:
- a bit more engine noise;
- valve & ignition timing slightly retarded (because the forward portion of the chain run is longer due to the absense of the plastic layer on the guide);
If you leave it too long, you’ll start getting a lot of metal in your oil and that will damage critical engine and transmission components - eventually.
Pete
Solomoriah
XS650 Addict
I'll be on the lookout. As of right now, given that it's not noisy, I'm assuming that most of the plastic is still in place, so I've decided not to worry about it.
