Rez Fink
XS650 Enthusiast
The following link is NOT my video but my cam chain is doing the same thing. Is that movement of the plunger/bobber normal? If not, suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
I don't look at mine with the engine off and cold. I only check mine after the engine is hot and the engine is idling. With it hot and idling I adjust for about 1 to 2 mm of rod in/out motion. If the camchain rattles too much, then I tighten up adjustment slightly.
That looks right but I find it very hard to do with the motor off. I also do mine running like RG. There's no way to screw it up that way. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. I've seen some of the strange things people do around here, lol.
To me it looks terrible, like it's moving 5mm or more.
Here's how I check/adjust mine. With the bike dead cold: back the adjuster out with a wrench. Turn it back in using just your fingers until you can't turn it any more. That takes the slack out with no chance of being tight enough to cause extra wear. It has to be done cold because it won't turn well with your fingers if it isn't. It would probably be a good idea to turn the crank a few degrees ccw first to make sure there's no slack in front, but I've never done that.
The lock nut in the video - if the wrench has pushed metal higher than the face file it flat or it will prevent a good oil seal with the cap. The cap goes all the way to the edge where the nut gets roughed up.
P.S. In 2019 I no longer recommend this adjustment method.... Because if the adjuster and housing are clean and free of buildup it's possible to tighten the adjuster using just your fingers to the point where there is no plunger movement. Not good.
Here's how I check/adjust mine. With the bike dead cold: back the adjuster out with a wrench. Turn it back in using just your fingers until you can't turn it any more. That takes the slack out with no chance of being tight enough to cause extra wear. It has to be done cold because it won't turn well with your fingers if it isn't. It would probably be a good idea to turn the crank a few degrees ccw first to make sure there's no slack in front, but I've never done that.
The lock nut in the video - if the wrench has pushed metal higher than the face file it flat or it will prevent a good oil seal with the cap. The cap goes all the way to the edge where the nut gets roughed up.
P.S. In 2019 I no longer recommend this adjustment method.... Because if the adjuster and housing are clean and free of buildup it's possible to tighten the adjuster using just your fingers to the point where there is no plunger movement. Not good.
Last edited:
It's funny how looking at someone else's can have you wondering if yours is normal.
Today, curiosity led me to take the camchain adjuster cap off. My first feeling was that, because the adjuster rod was standing proud of the little hex nut, the camchain has been over-tightened. But then, started thinking, maybe I need to advance the engine and see if it comes right. Then, I thought, why not have a look at xs650.com and see the proper way to check the adjustment.
Then I watched the little vid above.
And now I'm thinking - Is this normal?
I would have expected far more adjuster to be visible. And where is the big locknut?
Has the camchain been adjusted waaay past normal limits? If so, new chain needed?
Advice welcome . . .
Today, curiosity led me to take the camchain adjuster cap off. My first feeling was that, because the adjuster rod was standing proud of the little hex nut, the camchain has been over-tightened. But then, started thinking, maybe I need to advance the engine and see if it comes right. Then, I thought, why not have a look at xs650.com and see the proper way to check the adjustment.
Then I watched the little vid above.
And now I'm thinking - Is this normal?
I would have expected far more adjuster to be visible. And where is the big locknut?
Has the camchain been adjusted waaay past normal limits? If so, new chain needed?
Advice welcome . . .
Your year motor has the type D cam chain adjuster assembly. It has no lock nut so what you've found is correct. But something's off with it. Yes, the adjuster is screwed in more than you normally see, and the plunger shouldn't stick out past the bolt like that. I think you're missing the copper damper washer on the plunger .....
With it fitted, it's physically impossible for the plunger to stick out past the bolt like yours is, it will only come out flush with it .....
Yes, it's possible your cam chain is all worn out and stretched. As mentioned, the adjuster bolt shouldn't need to be screwed in that far. But the missing copper damper washer is also contributing to what you're seeing. The adjuster would need to be screwed in more to compensate for the washer not being there.
If your cam chain is all stretched out, that type D tensioner without the lock nut may have contributed to it. Yamaha used 5 different tensioner assemblies over the years. All had a lock nut except the type D .....
Without a lock nut on the adjuster bolt, when you fit and tighten the cap nut on the type D, it may also tighten the adjuster bolt more along with it. Then you end up with a chain that's set too tight and that can prematurely stretch it out. It's a good idea to upgrade a type D to a type E.
With it fitted, it's physically impossible for the plunger to stick out past the bolt like yours is, it will only come out flush with it .....
Yes, it's possible your cam chain is all worn out and stretched. As mentioned, the adjuster bolt shouldn't need to be screwed in that far. But the missing copper damper washer is also contributing to what you're seeing. The adjuster would need to be screwed in more to compensate for the washer not being there.
If your cam chain is all stretched out, that type D tensioner without the lock nut may have contributed to it. Yamaha used 5 different tensioner assemblies over the years. All had a lock nut except the type D .....
Without a lock nut on the adjuster bolt, when you fit and tighten the cap nut on the type D, it may also tighten the adjuster bolt more along with it. Then you end up with a chain that's set too tight and that can prematurely stretch it out. It's a good idea to upgrade a type D to a type E.
5twins, we crossed in the post! Thank you for the explanation and illustrations.
As you will see from my photo, the tensioner rod stands out a fair way, which according to the Haynes manual means the chain is too tight. The manual is probably basing that on an early type tensioner where the shoulder on the rod allows that to happen.
Now for the new-to-XS650s question - is it a simple matter to remove the adjuster, rod, spring and damper/washer assembly? Or does the spring mean that as you take the adjuster out, there's a PING!, you lose the spring and damper, and the rod falls down into the bottom end?
I would like to take a look, see what is there and consider an upgrade. Or at the very least, attempt to get the cam chain tension correct.
Thanks again, Raymond
As you will see from my photo, the tensioner rod stands out a fair way, which according to the Haynes manual means the chain is too tight. The manual is probably basing that on an early type tensioner where the shoulder on the rod allows that to happen.
Now for the new-to-XS650s question - is it a simple matter to remove the adjuster, rod, spring and damper/washer assembly? Or does the spring mean that as you take the adjuster out, there's a PING!, you lose the spring and damper, and the rod falls down into the bottom end?
I would like to take a look, see what is there and consider an upgrade. Or at the very least, attempt to get the cam chain tension correct.
Thanks again, Raymond
Yes, 6 bolts and out it comes as an assembly. If your chain is really badly stretched (hopefully not), I suppose there'd be a (remote?) possibility of it jumping a tooth on the cam or crank sprockets. Therefor I wouldn't turn the crank while you have it out
No need to remove the housing. You can simply screw the bolt, spring, and pushrod out as an "assembly". Nothing will spring apart and no parts will fall away inside the engine. Yes, pull it out and check to see if the damper washer is missing. I think it is.
Indeed. I would remove the spark plugs and cover the holes and THEN remove the tensioner - just to make sure that nothing (like a bit of stray compression) can move the crank while the tensioner is out.
Also - in case you’re interested, it is NOT possible to remove the cam cover box (the very top of the engine with the rocker arms and pivot shafts) unless you remove the engine from the frame. Many have tried, none have succeeded.
So - if your timing chain is bad, you will need to remove the engine and then the cam cover box and THEN you could change the timing chain.
BTW - removing the engine is not a big deal - especially if you have a helper.
Pete
Also - in case you’re interested, it is NOT possible to remove the cam cover box (the very top of the engine with the rocker arms and pivot shafts) unless you remove the engine from the frame. Many have tried, none have succeeded.
So - if your timing chain is bad, you will need to remove the engine and then the cam cover box and THEN you could change the timing chain.
BTW - removing the engine is not a big deal - especially if you have a helper.
Pete
Yeah.... my bad. What was I thinkin'.
Gentlemen, thank you all.
I shall pull the adjuster, rod, spring etc out and see what I have.
Pete, I will pull the plugs out. With the adjuster in place, I intend to rotate the engine and see if the rod moves in and out a little way. Either by turning the back wheel or a spanner on the crankshaft. But not a spanner in the works.
Upgrade to type E adjuster might be possible if I can find someone who has the parts. Otherwise . . . well, lets not get ahead of ourselves.
Cheers, Raymond
I shall pull the adjuster, rod, spring etc out and see what I have.
Pete, I will pull the plugs out. With the adjuster in place, I intend to rotate the engine and see if the rod moves in and out a little way. Either by turning the back wheel or a spanner on the crankshaft. But not a spanner in the works.
Upgrade to type E adjuster might be possible if I can find someone who has the parts. Otherwise . . . well, lets not get ahead of ourselves.
Cheers, Raymond
Well, this is what was in there:
5twins, you are fully vindicated - no washer/damper.
I will measure up and see if I can determine what is missing. Then, see if I can source the missing part(s).
5twins, you are fully vindicated - no washer/damper.
I will measure up and see if I can determine what is missing. Then, see if I can source the missing part(s).
Well - this is great news Raymond - and a pretty simple fix.
I'd be happy to pull the assembly out of my bike and make the requisite measurements for you but I am flying to Germany on business today and simply don't have time. Nevertheless, others will be able to provide the data and you'll be back in the game!
Pete
Here's a write-up on the type D and E tensioners (posts 22 and 23), also the size and an eBay source for the copper damper washers .....
http://www.xs650.com/threads/cam-chain-tensioners.1056/page-2
You haven't run the bike yet but if you had, you probably would have noticed a ticking like a loose valve even with the valves properly adjusted because of that missing damper washer. Start watching eBay for a type E tensioner assembly. They can usually be found for $20 or less if you're patient. You rarely run across the individual parts for sale like the plunger or lock nut, just complete assemblies, but like I said, they're not that expensive. If you plan on keeping the bike, I consider this a "must do" upgrade.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/cam-chain-tensioners.1056/page-2
You haven't run the bike yet but if you had, you probably would have noticed a ticking like a loose valve even with the valves properly adjusted because of that missing damper washer. Start watching eBay for a type E tensioner assembly. They can usually be found for $20 or less if you're patient. You rarely run across the individual parts for sale like the plunger or lock nut, just complete assemblies, but like I said, they're not that expensive. If you plan on keeping the bike, I consider this a "must do" upgrade.
The only part you are missing is the damper, which is readily available from Partzilla, and is cheap, except you have to pay for shipping.
EDIT: Yeah, as 5twins says, upgrading to the type E is a good idea. I have a complete type E assembly, if interested, PM me.
5twins, have read your posts on that other thread - both very interesting and very informative.
Have also been looking for the damper washer and composite damper on that internet. There are a few places which sell the composite damper in the US and sur le continent. But none in the UK.
However, I have bit the bullet and bought one for a total including international postage of more than $18.
In the meantime, I have found a steel washer like this:
which is roughly the right size and thickness and reassembled the adjuster.
Which now looks like this:
You will see that compared with earlier, there are more adjuster threads showing and the rod is not sitting out from the hex. With the help of a Willing Assistant to watch the rod as I turned the back wheel, the rod moves in and out by 1-2 mm and when it's out furthest is just flush with the end of the adjuster.
So I am much happier with the adjustment. But not too sure about the steel washer. It probably won't do any harm but will replace with the copper one when it arrives. That will hopefully be soon and I need to wait for the petrol tank and have that painted before I will be running the engine anyhow.
I just hope that, if the tension was set too tight previously, it has not done any real harm.
Would love to do the upgrade to type E with the deeper mushroom on the adjuster rod and locknut on the adjuster but probably not find any on UK ebay.
But thank you again to all for your interest and helpful advice.
DogBunny, we crossed in the post. As you will see above, damper now on order. Cheers, Raymond
I'm hoping you bought a 2mm thick copper washer and not that 3mm thick metal/rubber damper washer Yamaha now sells. That 3mm thick washer won't fit up correctly on your damper assembly with the 60mm long adjusting bolt. It's a bit too thick and won't allow the rod to come out flush to the end of the bolt. It doesn't hurt anything really, just makes adjusting more difficult because the rod will be inset into the bolt and it's harder to observe it's in-out movement. That later 3mm thick rubber/metal damper washer is made to be used with the later slightly shorter (by 1mm) adjuster bolt. The slightly shorter bolt compensates for the slightly thicker washer so the rod will again come out flush to the end of the bolt.
The steel washer you've fitted won't hurt anything, but it might result in some added engine noise, some ticking like a valve is loose.
Your adjuster bolt depth looks better but it's still screwed in pretty far. Your chain may be worn out. Another indication of this is if you still have the points ignition and go to set the timing, you will run out of adjustment on the timing plate before you can dial the timing in correctly.
The steel washer you've fitted won't hurt anything, but it might result in some added engine noise, some ticking like a valve is loose.
Your adjuster bolt depth looks better but it's still screwed in pretty far. Your chain may be worn out. Another indication of this is if you still have the points ignition and go to set the timing, you will run out of adjustment on the timing plate before you can dial the timing in correctly.
I hadn't noticed that you are in the U.K.
If you bought the stock Yamaha damper, you will see that is pretty heavily dished. I don't know if the originals were like that, and have just flattened out over time, or if the dishing is new. This, along with it being softer copper, results in a much greater cushioning effect, I believe, and is why using a steel washer should only be a temporary fix.
If you bought the stock Yamaha damper, you will see that is pretty heavily dished. I don't know if the originals were like that, and have just flattened out over time, or if the dishing is new. This, along with it being softer copper, results in a much greater cushioning effect, I believe, and is why using a steel washer should only be a temporary fix.
