Electrical issue(s): Sat on bike without the seat, hit electric start and poof! problems

[Lou]

Hi All, I bought a 1980 XS650 Special a few months ago in running shape but with alot of rust. Interestingly, according to the VIN it was the 7th bike to roll off production in 1980 which is kinda cool.

It had been `stored' for last several years under a tarp here in Hawaii. Ive been cleaning it up to remove rust and give its appearance a boost. I replaced things like spark plugs, new exhaust, new clutch and accel cables, new brakes front/rear, oil change and did a valve adjustment.

Everything was going fine, especially with the great information here on the forum to help me along. Last weekend I started it after installing new exhaust and she started up right away. I went and did some other chores, happy that I was soooo close to being able to take it out for a cruise finally. After a few hours I come back to play some more and start it again, but this time I foolishly sat on bike without the seat and hit the estart button. My neutral light went out and bike wouldnt start. I realized I must have smashed the fusebox or caused a short somewhere.

I replaced the glass fuse box with ATC fuses per the forum recommendations. I also traced the wiring looking for a burned wire but havent found any yet -I also did not smell any burning wires. From what I could find on the forum, there was one other thread where someone did the same thing I did, sitting on bike without a seat, but the solution wasnt clear.

Here is where I am as of today: I got a new starter relay from Mikes and installed it (still have the old one) but it didn't solve the problem. The clues I have are: no visible melted wires or smell at the time I sat on the bike. No visible grounded wires that I have found yet. If I try to kickstart or estart the bike, the neutral light goes out. If I then disconnect/reconnect the battery, the neutral light and tail light come back on...until I kick or hit the start button again.

Can someone help lay out what steps I should take first to try and figure out what the issue is? I have a multimeter but am a novice with electrical troubleshooting. I appreciate any help and let me know if there is some other info I can provide!

Oh yeah, since we all love moto pics I added one the way bike looked when I bought it and then how it looks now.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Welcome to the forum, Lou. Love that avatar.

...The clues I have are:

If I try to kickstart or estart the bike, the neutral light goes out. If I then disconnect/reconnect the battery, the neutral light and tail light come back on...until I kick or hit the start button again...

I think that's your best clue. Sounds like the wire/cable terminal(s), or the battery posts, may be damaged. Easily done if they're old and you sit on them. Could try to post a couple of crisp/clear close-ups of your battery top and/or posts, see whut others think...

 

[Lou]

Thanks 2M! I replaced the old fuse box with a temporary setup of ATC fuses but not an actual ATC fuse box -just a separate in-line fuse holder for each of the four fuses. I carefully wired/insulated each connection and taped em up so I think the wire terminal connects are okay. Plan was/is to order an actual ATC fuse box asap as permanent solution once I figured out what the electrical issue is. I'm not going to wait now though, and will order one online today.

Also forgot to mention the PO had all the wrong fuses in there --which I never bothered to check until this issue came up. First thing I did was look for a blown fuse, and noticed that PO had put a 30amp fuse where the 20amp is supposed to be! Argh, well at least all fuses are correct now.

I just inspected my battery per your idea to look at the posts themselves as possible culprit. Pulled battery out and the posts dont have any visible cracks and dont move at all so I think they are okay. What I DID notice though was the battery box itself was loose and bent down now because I had sat on it. I am going to fix that issue and look at how it might be grounding or interfering with the wiring. I will also double-check my wiring at the fuses and report back..

Thanks for the help!

 

[retiredgentleman]

You have done a fine job bringing the bike back from its shabby former self.
With electrical problems, its always good to segregate different parts of the various circuits. Try removing each fuse, one fuse at a time, and see if things come back to normal.

 

[fredintoon]

Hi Lou and welcome,
careful circuit by circuit testing will hopefully find your problem but it can be a tedious process.
20/10/10/10 is what your fuse ratings should be but in almost all short-circuit problems a 30 will work as well as a 20.
Nice looking bike but one caveat (the missing seat don't count as I'm sure there'll be one before you sit on the bike again)
The XS650 front fender is also a fork brace. Those forks are gonna be kinda wobbly if you don't re-install it or fit a fork brace to replace it.

 

[Guss80special]

I'm also new to the forum and also having electrical problems (1980 special)
.... I lost spark after letting my it sit untouched for 2 weeks of vacation. Spent 4 hrs yesterday troubleshooting and I believe I have a faulty coil. Resistance at plugs is 23500 ohms. I ordered a new one with new plug caps and wires. Hopefully that helps me... but ....
.... you said it won't start, but do you have spark?

 

[Lou]

Hey guys thanks for all this feedback. I am going to pull each fuse one by one and check for any symptom differences to see if it helps isolate the issue.

I haven't tested for spark yet, figuring that I wont be able to with the electrical cutting off right when I hit the starter button or try to kickstart. That has been bugging me though; is it correct that the only way to test for spark is by pulling a plug, putting into the plug wire and looking for spark when turning it over? Good luck Guss and I look forward to hearing what the problem ends up being.

Thanks Fred, Im working on my front fender and plan to put it back on. It has alot of rust so am cleaning sanding and painting it -its pretty ugly right now so may just look for a good used one if its a goner. I was going to run without it at first but read on the forum about it acting as a brace. Definitely dont need wobbly forks! There will 100% definitely be a seat there once I get it fixed cause if I sat on it again without one I would feel exactly like my avatar The seat that came with the bike doesnt fit right, as if a PO replaced the original with it. Plan is to order the correct seat either clean used or a new one

 

[Guss80special]

Yes Thats what I read on the forum. Make sure to ground the plug to the engine though. I've been frustrated with lots of electrical issues with my bike. Got it running in late June after only 2 tries on the starter button with very little prep (new oil, fuses, battery and plugs). I was happy and thought the electrics were fine. It had been sitting in a cold dark Canadian garage for 25 years. I was tired of chasing vacuum and carb issues so I decided to lighten things up and put on some nice new black painted handle bars. Bad idea.... The start switch stopped working immediately. Scraped off paint, and put the stock ones back on (as per the zillions of posts about having a good ground on the bars) still doesn't work. Kick start worked however for a week so I kept on focusing on the carbs... then suddenly no spark at all Lol. Tried every bit of grounding advise I read on this forum (start switch issue)... no luck. so along with the new coil, I also ordered a new wiring harness complete with new fuse box and new grounding cables. I'm pumped to get the parts and see if it works or not.... Good luck!!

 

[gggGary]

Ground strap; check, or better replace, the ground strap.
(6" cable from battery- to frame) lots of those are junk 40 years on.
Take a big ole screw driver and short across the two big terminals on the starter relay, what happens?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Guss80special....................resistance from plug lead to plug lead of 23500 ohms is completely normal for a 1980 . The high voltage winding is 13 K ohms and each of the plug caps is 5 k oms. Unless its been replaced previously, your existing coil is a high quality OEM Japanese coil. If you ordered from
XS650direct , you have bought a low quality Chinese coil. I know I would continue to use the OEM coil.

 

[azman857]

Check the starter's mounting bolts. The one above the the main wire came loose enough to fall on the wire on the starter and would ground out the battery when the starter button was pushed. It's a wonder the battery didn't explode on my '80 SG when this happened. It did kill the AGM battery though.

 

[Guss80special]

Hmm. Interesting. Both the clymer and Haines manuals say the resistance of the secondary coil, plug to plug should be 10-15k. So what you are saying is that the manuals are not adding the plug resistance in the instructions but basically assuming the reader knows what he is doing? . Clymer - Test #5, page 183. That sucks, 'cause I don't really know what I'm doing. Lol. I guess I misread it. Thank you for clarifying that!
Primary coil test read 2.7 so that's at the upper end of the range (2.25-2.7) - test #4.

My pick up coil test was succcesful, I think - measured 750.

So back to the drawing board I suppose....

Yes. I did try the long screw driver test on the starter solenoid, but I used a large wire instead . It did engage the starter. It sparked a lot so I backed off.

Battery Ground cable/strap is very corroded so I made a new one based on forum advise. 6 gague welding wire etc... Resistance reduced to nearly nothing, but did not help get the ignition going. I read somewhere that r distance should be zero from neg post to frame. I ordered new battery cables just in case.

Starter bolts are solid and appear to be in good shape as does most of the wiring connections. The harness looks really worn and battered around the battery though.

The bike only had 8k km when it was stored back in 1992. Clutch requires super human strength, but I won't even bother with that unless I can get the electrics and engine working half decent. I digress... sorry, this is about ignition

One other thing I read somewhere on the engine tech forum was that voltage to ignition fuse must be 12v. Mine is only 9.5. What would that indicate do you think?

My fuse box looks pretty bad, headlight tangy thing is broken. I broke it the other day trying to clean stuff. so that kinda got me thinking of a new fuse box. A new harness comes with the fuse box, so I figured I may as well replace both.

So what do you think? Coil is ok right.... Should I proceed with a new wire harness and battery grounds? Any other advice?

This site it great btw... and full of helpful people. Thank you.
Lou... I did not mean to hijack your thread.... hopefully it's useful to you as well! G

 

[Guss80special]

Sorry. Also. Signal lights, break lights and horn work fine. Tail lights flicker, but work when I move wires around a bit..... corrosion perhaps.

Headlight only works if engine is running (before I broke the fuse connector and when it actually ran), but I think that's normal for these bikes right? Headlight and dash bulbs need alternator power?

Engine on/off switch seems to be fine (aside from the start switch that is). Voltage to fuse in the ON position is 9.5 and zero in the OFF position. So I'm getting voltage to it right? but perhaps not enough??

Cheers, G

 

[retiredgentleman]

The wiring harnesses get beat up quite badly on these old bikes. Buying a new harness is a good idea. The original fuse panel was OK for the first 30 years or so, but these days they are just plain worn out. You may have high resistance across the 4 fuses which is very common, and may be why the starter is not working. Once you receive the new harness, you can start fresh and see how the electrics work.

I suggest you take the ignition switch and kill switch apart, and clean them internally. Its very important that they have low resistance.
Yes, your coil is likely good. Yes, headlight only comes on after the alternator produces voltage and operates the Safety Relay.

 

[650Skull]

Guss80special................You have hijacked the thread........not my call but to be fair to the OP, you both are having electrical problems so how are you guys gong to interpenetrate the answers to questions to what bike.................?????

less confusing if a new thread was opened up.

 

[retiredgentleman]

I agree with Skull. Guss80special......................it gets too confusing when this happens. You should have started a new thread. Perhaps if you start a new thread, you can copy and paste your questions into that new thread, and I can easily copy and paste my answers.

 

[MaxPete]

I've clipped this from another thread because it shows how to service your coils and leads. My guess is that your coil is OK. It likely just needs to have the terminals cleaned and a new plug wire installed.

Here's how:

-----------------------------
The high voltage (aka high tension or HT) terminals in the coil and the spark plug cap are tapered screw-on terminals with a rubber grommet and a threaded cap to keep it all together.

On my bike, one of those connections was bad which caused a cylinder to drop-out. Here's how to fix it:

1. Unscrew the cap over the bad cylinder HT lead on the coil;
2. Remove the HT lead from the coil (you may find that it simply falls out);
3. Trim off a few mm (say 1/4 inch) of the end of the lead to get a fresh connection;
4. Remove about 1/4" of the HT lead installation - and spread the conductors out radially on the end of the lead (see the photo below - courtesy of 5Twins);
5. Reach down into the shrouded terminal on the coil and remove any rust/crap on the terminal screw;
6. Put a little dab of silicone ignition system sealing grease on the lead;
7. Insert the lead until it touches the terminal screw;
8. Rotate the lead while pushing it in and onto the terminal;
9. Turn it....maybe...4-5 revolutions until you gently feel it bottom out (the terminal end is tapered - it looks a lot like the end of a wood screw);
10. Now simply thread the cap back onto the coil and tighten the cap BY HAND - making sure that the grommet is back in place to keep water out of the connection;
11. Repeat the entire process on the spark plug cap - it uses the same type of tapered screw connector - and don't forget the silicone grease.

Here is 5Twins photo of how to prep the end of the HT lead prior to screwing it onto the coil terminal.

Here is a photo of a screw-type HT terminal on one of an ignition coil. I got this off the web.

I did this on my '76 Standard and it worked like a charm at preventing cylinder drop-outs.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Guss80special]

Thanks for the advise everyone. I'll start a new thread this weekend

 

[Lou]

Hi All, OK per some of the first suggestions I looked more closely at battery itself and the battery box -found that I had not attached the two front supports that holds box in place so when I sat on it the box was pushed down -Doh!. I noticed that it was squeezing the cable from starter relay to starter, and saw a tiny nick in the sheath. I taped that up and put the supports on so box was in place like it should be. I also taped up some other parts of the wiring where old tape was coming off. I hit the starter button and presto! It started turning over and all lights stayed on. Woohoo!

So here is where I got myself back in trouble: I had replaced the original starter relay w a MikesXS one, but realizing that the issue was probably the relay to starter cable grounding out, I went ahead and put my original relay back in. After I did that, I now have no lights at all and bike wont button start. I have 12.5-6volts at battery and at post on starter relay so battery and battery ground seems okay.

My new clue: It appears that every wire off the relay is getting 12.5v when i turn key to on position. In fact, every wire i tested on different looms and connectors were showing 12.5v --every wire and post on the relay, every wire on a few connectors I tested, even every wire going to my taillight and turn sigs in rear. I haven't tested wires in the headlight bucket yet tho...

Does that tell anyone what I did wrong? I even swapped the new relay back in thinking I mis-wired something, but still showing 12.5v to every wire im testing when key is on..

 

[Lou]

Another way I could ask this is simply: What would I have to do, I think by mis-wiring something, to now have 12.5v going to all my wiring including ground wires? For example all the positive and ground wires on my tail light and turn signals are now showing 12.5v with the key on.