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Expanded charging system guide (In progress)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by gggGary, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Your rotor is reading low IE LESS resistance than it should have, That almost always means the insulation on the wires is breaking down there is no cure for that. Cleaning won't make it higher. Failed rotors are a pretty common problem, they are 40 years old. I've had more than a dozen XS650's running, all but one used stock charging systems. Put about 6-7,000 miles on XS's last summer.
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs and mcjongs like this.
  2. Machine

    Machine Race the wind Top Contributor

    This is a good question. For a couple years now I've wondered myself how to properly clean a rotor & stator.
    Perhaps just dry compressed air ?
    I feel like at one time in a mildly aggressive cleaning session using brake cleaner or maybe even carb cleaner on my own bike, I could have done more damage than good.
    Possibly even ending my rotors life this way.
    Right after the cleaning,
    I ran it up the highway and did 100mph or more and that was the end of my electrical system working.
    Mystery still unsolved.
    -RT
     
    mcjongs likes this.
  3. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    Well...I took a new measurement of the rotor now and the readings I got just after the ride was like 10,5 Ohm (inclusive brush)... !!!!!!
    I then took the outer brush off again and it must be that the brush was somehow stuck with bad contact to the rotor.
    I also must have measured wrong earlier because on my new measurement... after thorough mounting and checking.. I also grinded the rotor with 400 paper to take away shit, cranked the engine a few turns.. and guess what ??? I got in fact 5,4 ohm!! :) I also measured from the outer ring to the inner brush and got the same reading.. so I guess that I now have good contact between brush and rotor.
    It is too late to disturb neighbors so I will test start it tomorrow..
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    gggGary likes this.
  4. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    I didn't think you could test the rotor with the brushes in place? For cleaning the slip rings, I've had good luck with a little chrome cleaner on a rag. You don't have to rub all that hard or that much to get them clean and shined up just like new again. I follow the chrome cleaner rub down with a cleaning using electrical contact cleaner to remove any remnants of the chrome cleaner. Here's mine with one ring cleaned, the other not .....

    [​IMG]
     
    Machine likes this.
  5. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    Ok. Thanks for tips! I agree to only test the rotor resistance without the brushes in series.. However I found an assembly error to the outer brush measuring between 10-11 Ohms and that was for sure not gonna work..
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  6. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    When you turn on the ignition, Is it supposed to be a ''click'' in any relay? The safety relay?
    The slap test does not work for me..
     
  7. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    I never heard any clicks on either of mine.
     
    mcjongs likes this.
  8. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    Ok.. So did a test this morning.. No charging.. Is it normal/correct to have 12V between battery plus and both the brushes when engine is running? Must be a short some where? Next step is to test voltage on brown and green wire.. I understand that reg/rec. need +12 volt/battery voltage to brown to be able to give +12 Volt out on the green wire.. I think I did that check on the 3 wire connector from the reg/rec. :banghead:
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  9. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Looking at a picture of your stator, looks like it is the correct grounded top brush, lets see your voltage regulator too? NOTE: ignition on, outer brush should be at +12 as supplied by the regulator. If not trace back and find out where the +12 goes missing You can put a jumper from the battery to that brush (terminals on bottom). see if it charges. Do not leave this on for long just to test that voltage now increases with motor RPM.

    Early alternator generic schematic.gif
    early stator brushes.jpg
    Note: I made many, LOL edits to this post.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    TwoManyXS1Bs and Machine like this.
  10. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    Yeeessss!! :bike:
    I did think the same Gary but as you wrote in your first post #3 about putting the green to ground.. I did not quite understood. But jumping +12V to the reg/rectifier connector did the thing! got 15,9V at the battery, blinkers and everything but the reg. works now fine.
    I take it the reg./rec. is toast then since the regulator do not manage to give any output? I measured 0V out from the green wire coming from the regulator.
    So what a great relief! :cheers: Thanks for all help!!
    I just hope that the solid state regulator I have ordered is OK with the old stator version I have. Maybe I should just do one more thing and that is to ground the reg. housing..Just to see if that is doing something..?:umm:
    Post note: No change when earthing the reg. housing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  11. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    Great! Is your's an old mechanical regulator? there are two screws to open the cover, check that the points aren't stuck. clean sand set points.
    ACE 004.JPG
     
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  12. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

  13. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    yeah that flea bay one looks like a late model ground controlling regulator, as compared to a stock +12 controlling regulator.
    Looking at the Electrexworrld site, none of the Bstds ever post up a frick'n wiring block diagram! You might check and see if your regulator connects one lead to ground when powered and supplies +12 to the other lead, if so your brush holder can be swapped or modified (nylon screw mod), to work with your regulator.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.
  14. gggGary

    gggGary Stop that! Top Contributor XS650.com Supporter

    The XS650 70-79 controlling the +12 brush regulator is old school and now unusual, most "modern" field type regulators control the ground. If the SOBS would just show block diagrams we would KNOW how to wire them! :banghead:

    edited cuz 5t caught my mistake.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    peanut, TwoManyXS1Bs and mcjongs like this.
  15. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    The '70-'79 650 regulator is the power controlling type. It's the '80-'83 650 regulator that controls the ground, and that's what that eBay reg/rec looks to be. The bikes-it-fits list has errors in it. It says it fits all models of the XS750 triple but that just can't be true. I know for a fact that the early models, the '76 and '77, used the same power switching regulator as the '70-'79 650 did. But the '78 XS750 switched to a ground controlling regulator like the '80-'83 650 uses. All the other bikes listed, the XS850 and XS1100, also use the ground switching type regulator. Even if it was the correct type, being such a cheap Chinese product, it probably wouldn't have lasted for very long anyway.

    Honestly, in my opinion, the best reg and rec set-up for these stock charging systems is to use an automotive regulator and a rectifier from the electronics world. The VR115 is a power switching regulator suited for use on the '70-'79 650 systems, and is what most of us use. It has been used on cars since the '70s and is a proven, reliable unit. They can be had for between $10 and $30. A good quality 3 phase rectifier from the electronics world can be had for about $10. It's just plain crazy (and STUPID) to be spending $100+ on those motorcycle specific units.
     
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  16. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    I live in Norway-- not so many Us cars here around..
    I did yesterday order a new pre 79' one from Yambits.(67£ to my door) I have good experience with them and delivery time.
    :offtopic: ---- I will most likely have it on Friday or early next week in due time to have bike ready for this very serious race: https://rallyknuten.jimdo.com/
    Some cool pictures can also be seen here.
    https://www.livredd.info/index.php?/category/61n Sorry to be a little of topic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  17. mcjongs

    mcjongs XS650 Member

    Hi all..
    It has been a while since I strugled with the bike.. The issue with bad ignittion and oily spark plugs leading to misfiring was anoying me a lot.. Finally I found out that after former owner changed to the Lukas Rita ignition he did not change the coils.. The coils was the of the original types with too high resistance for Electronic ignition.. 4ish Ohm (?) I read about the mod using a dual coil for electronic ignition with 2,5-3 Ohm. I ended up ordering a dual Ignition coil IC-TCI-D2. of 2,7 Ohm, primary and a fiew days ago it came in the post.. http://www.ignitech.cz/zdroj/en/vyrobky/accessories/ic/ic-tci-d2.jpg
    I mounted it with the red wire from harnes to + .. very bad marking.. I do not think it is polar sensitiv (?) Anyway, the bike now runs fine and the spark plugs are more normal grey/brown. :) I hope now that I have come trough the problems once and for all.

    Jon
     
  18. 650Skull

    650Skull Dinosaur Lives Top Contributor

    Most of the relevant pics to the tutorial are missing from the tutorial posts...........Page #1
     

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