Harder/impossible to shift gears at idle as engine warms up.

[halliday77]

Hi guys,

The description pretty much says it all and I'm pretty stumped on figuring. I want to at least have an idea before I go and take something apart.

As my engine warms up during a ride, it can become near impossible at low revs to shift into neutral from 1st or 2nd or vice versa. If I get the revs way up it gets easier. Sometimes when I'm parking I just have to give up and wait til I get back.

Any bright ideas?

 

[DaveO]

My first stop would be checking clutch adjustment. A dragging clutch makes it difficult to find neutral. Inability to select neutral in my experience does get worse as the bike warms up. If you physically can't move the gear selector then there must be something more serious wrong.

There is lots on this site to do with adjusting the clutch and clutch drag problems. Try the search page. If this isn't it, someone else will surely chime in.

Dave

 

[gggGary]

Yes as a general rule any wet clutch will be hard to shift when the bike is at a stand still. The XS650 is no worse than others, IF you have a good lubed cable and the adjustments are done correctly. Out side of the odd warped plate, I find that even sitting at a stop sign, with a slight rev, slight clutch release till the bike just inches ahead a bit pull in the lever and and I can get neutral. This works on just about any old bike.
There are two lengths of clutch release arms used over the years, you trade lever effort for range of motion. MikesXs sells one with two holes, take your choice.
Often cables that seem to move freely with no load on them have worn out linings and bind under load.

 

[1974jh5]

I grew up with bikes that were like this and got in the habit of grabbing neutral as I rolled to a stop.

If the clutch mechanism 'screw' is worn it will cut down on the amount of movement available. It feels like the mechanism is adjusted properly but in fact you are using maybe 20-25% of the available movement just to shove the thing around so it will start moving the pushrod, and that's enough to make it hard to separate the plates enough for an easy neutral shift. Add to that the amount the engine expands as it heats up which also adds to the amount of wasted movement in the stock setup and it gets downright frustrating sometimes.

I finally got aggravated enough with the stock setup that I bit the bullet and did a hydraulic conversion. I used the Aprilia slave cylinder and a 12.9mm Mike's master cylinder, now it pops right into neutral at a stop.

 

[retiredgentleman]

As Gary mentioned, you can buy an actuator from Mikesxs with 2 holes, or you can drill a second hole closer to the centre.The inner hole will give more clutch plate separation. I drilled a second hole.

Make sure the nylon part of the worm gear is not cracked. Use lots of grease.

As the engine heats up, the steel long pushrod does not expand the same amount, as the aluminum case. This causes the free play at the lever to get larger. I re-adjust the freeplay while I'm riding to overcome this.

Actually there's almost no need to select neutral while the engine is running. At red lights, leave the bike in first gear, its safer. When you are stopping, and plan to leave the engine shut down for a while, just kill the engine while in gear. As soon as you kill it, you can select neutral no problem at all, and its ready for the next engine start.

 

[filipgranbom]

Could it also be a worn needle bearing?

"If your clutch does not seem to release properly or if you have difficulty finding neutral when the engine is hot a worn bearing may be the reason"

http://www.mikesxs.net/product/39-6505.html

 

[ClOckwOrk]

Mine did this. Look under the cover the actuator ARM has two springs on it and one was broken. It would downshift like shit and sometimes get caught in neutral and be stuck there

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[XSLeo]

Mike's bearing, I put one in mine. You would think with all those extra rollers it would help. Not on mine. It does help eliminate some of the wobble of the clutch but it won't really help shifting much unless the stock bearing is totally shot.
Proper lubing of the cable and worm and proper adjustment cure most shifting trouble.
If not then the cable is worn out and/or the worm is worn or cracked.
Leo

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yeah, Mikesxs is typical of parts sellers. They make broad statements in their advertising, that make the buyer think, a new part will solve all their problems. The fact remains, that Yamaha's design of the clutch, does not allow for sufficient plate separation. The worm gear will only give so much plates separation.

The real fix would be to do as 1974jh5 did, and use an Aprilia hydraulic slave cyclinder.

 

[grepper]

If the above doesn't work, it might either be the oil your using and/or your engine is running too hot. Just a thought. This happend to me. I switched my pipes and the bike started running lean and too hot and shifting got hard.

 

[halliday77]

Thanks so much guys,

As usual, you're all a bloody helpful bunch.
Will keep you posted when I get the chance for adjustments this weekend.

Cheers!

 

[Jusblowit]

I grew up with bikes that were like this and got in the habit of grabbing neutral as I rolled to a stop.

If the clutch mechanism 'screw' is worn it will cut down on the amount of movement available. It feels like the mechanism is adjusted properly but in fact you are using maybe 20-25% of the available movement just to shove the thing around so it will start moving the pushrod, and that's enough to make it hard to separate the plates enough for an easy neutral shift. Add to that the amount the engine expands as it heats up which also adds to the amount of wasted movement in the stock setup and it gets downright frustrating sometimes.

I finally got aggravated enough with the stock setup that I bit the bullet and did a hydraulic conversion. I used the Aprilia slave cylinder and a 12.9mm Mike's master cylinder, now it pops right into neutral at a stop.

Do you know the bore diameter on the Aprilia slave you used?
I'm dealing with this right now, using an FZR Genesis slave... The FZR master that came with it was 5/8” (appx.16 mm) and way too stiff, and I could hear the clutch boss clunking against the inside of the case at full seperation. Went to a 12 mm Brembo and I'm experiencing some clutch drag and hard/impossible shifts at idle. Seems like a 14 mm master would be a good in between , but the I can only find a 13 in tht type. That's close to your 12.9 setup, if I knew the size of the slave I could just swap that out. Trial and error with Brembo masters is an expensive learning experience.