Help with kickstart/ clutch issues

[Fang]

Hey everyone
First post so here we go
Got a 79 xs650 last night
By jumping the bike (currently missing battery) I was able to get her to start
Sounds great
The clutch lever was very stiff so i figured it needed some adjusting
Goes through all the gears fine
Got it home and tore it apart, did a lot of research and reading trying to figure it out myself but I'm stumped
Took off the left side engine cover, removed the cable from the worm gear and it moves freely (the worm gear)
lubed up the cable and checked for frays, nothin
Pulled out the push rod and cleaned it, looks good
slapped it all back together and tensioned the cable via worm gear
Fully tensioned the cable still had slack so i tightened it up top on the perch a little more
Pulling on the clutch its still pretty stiff, I took off the right side engine cover after draining the oil and i can see the clutch moving as if the push rods are functioning but it's still pretty tight to me but it seems rideable at least compared to what it was, seems like adjusting the worm gear helped a bit but it was fully tightened, i assume the cable is just stretched and should be replaced but if anyone has any insight that would be great

Second problem
Kick start
When I got the bike the kick start seemed kinda messed up
While kicking it there is a bit of resistance but not much just seems kinda mushy
Springs back up so I assume the spring was installed/preloaded correctly
Of course by now its in my hands being examined
before taking the right side cover off I put it in first and attempted to kick it a bit
The bike rolled forward as anticipated
This is where im getting puzzled
with the side cover off I am holding the mechanism in place(kick clip is in the recess) and manually turning the kick start pedal with my hand
I can see the gear on the shaft rotate and slide back on the splines engaging the gearbox
As i turn the kickstart pedal I can see the pressure plate spinning but the pedal is still pretty limp
Pardon my ignorance, I've been messing with it/ researching all day and can't seem to figure it out

 

[Fang]

Update*
Ive also tried backing out the worm gear entirely
still nothing
Do the kick starts on these bikes normally click on the way up?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Welcome to the forum, Fang.

Kickstart power goes thru the clutch, so the clutch must be assembled and engaged to deliver that power to the clutch basket --> primary gearset --> crankshaft.

Read the 'Tech' section's clutch threads, and ensure that all that clutch, pushrod, worm and cable stuff is all there, assembled and adjusted correctly...

 

[Fang]

Welcome to the forum, Fang.

Read the 'Tech' section's clutch threads, and ensure that all that clutch, pushrod, worm and cable stuff is all there, assembled and adjusted correctly...

Thanks!
I've been researching it all day and came across some solutions
After lubing the cable I routed it free of any kinks etc, cleaned and lubed the worm and push rod
The clutch spring cap screws are of course stripped so until I can grab a impact screwdriver tomorrow I'm stuck just looking at it
but I assembled everything and the clutch pulls pretty good now, much stiffer than my last newer bike but after reading many threads I can see these levers are all a bit stiff to pull
With the cable free and everything cleaned and lubed I can see the clutch discs disengage freely and it feels good to me, I'll end up changing the cable in the near future since this one looks pretty old

Kickstart power goes thru the clutch, so the clutch must be assembled and engaged to deliver that power to the clutch basket --> primary gearset --> crankshaft.

I can see the gear with the red arrow slide and engage into the gear with the yellow arrow
And the two gears with the blue arrows hardly move
Seems like it doesn't want to spin the crank
The starter gets it running fine, but when i kick it through I can see the crank isnt spinning
No chugging like my friend's xs
Just one solid push all the way through
Sorry again for my lack of knowledge, I am still researching and learning as much as I can, this is my first kick start bike

 

[Fang]

Further research is showing me the hole on the pressure plate has to be aligned with a dimple on the clutch assembly, I can't access it at the moment but I don't see the dimple through the hole!
Could this affect the kick start?
My hands are itching hoping this is the problem
And it looks like someone has been in the clutch basket before or at least tried since the philips heads are all stripped, I plan on also replacing them with hex head bolts as recommended by many, seems like a necessity.

 

[Fang]

I have also turned the crank with just a ratchet and it pumps through perfect as if i was kicking it, I think everything is pointing towards the clutch basket

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Sounds like you're getting a pretty good grip on how these things work.

Yes, not having the pressure plate's alignment hole over the hub's dimple will cause clutch problems, like non-engaging, which you're experiencing (blue-arrowed gears not turning).

And, you're right about removing those 6 stripped clutch spring shoulder screws to get in there. While you're removing the pressure plate, confirm your suspected misalignment. Then clean, inspect, measure the clutch plates.

After reassembly, be sure to completely readjust the worm/pushrod mechanism...

 

[Fang]

Sounds like you're getting a pretty good grip on how these things work.

Yes, not having the pressure plate's alignment hole over the hub's dimple will cause clutch problems, like non-engaging, which you're experiencing (blue-arrowed gears not turning).

And, you're right about removing those 6 stripped clutch spring shoulder screws to get in there. While you're removing the pressure plate, confirm your suspected misalignment. Then clean, inspect, measure the clutch plates.

After reassembly, be sure to completely readjust the worm/pushrod mechanism...

Thanks again!
as far as the plates, what would be an acceptable measurement?
I have also read that some baskets have 6/7 fiber and steel discs and some have less, Did the earlier models have less plates or was it the later ones?
I am uploading a video to help further diagnosis

Posted via Mobile

 

[Fang]

Here's a video of the symptoms,
I am currently checking out the clutch discs, they all seem fine and in the correct order
I haven't removed the basket yet, The hole wasn't lined up with the notch as I thought, I lined it up reassembled it and still no luck

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Nice video.
Your kickstart and transmission look okay.
The problem is that the clutch isn't engaged.
The clutch pushrod is probably keeping the pressure plate from fully clamping the plates.
Loosen and readjust the screw that's in the center of the worm...

 

[Fang]

I tried it with the left side cover off to make sure it wasnt holding any pressure and still nothing
I then took apart the basket after getting my hands on a impact screwdriver
Inspected all the discs and they do seem a little worn but nothing major
I reassembled everything and lined up the hole on the pressure plate to the dimple, as suspected it wasn't in the correct position before
When I kick it now it seems to move a bit more, but it seems like the clutch is still almost slipping, If i kick it slowly the pistons dont move, if i kick it fast it will turn over
It seems that hole might have been the issue, I'm currently putting everything back on to test it out further with the actual engine cover on but inspecting everything seems to have helped somewhat, I certainly know much more about these bikes than I did yesterday!

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I tried it with the left side cover off to make sure it wasnt holding any pressure and still nothing!

Definitely something wrong there. The pressure plate should be able to clamp the discs between it and the hub's backside flange. Confirm that you have the proper stackup thickness, and that the pressure plate's inner splines aren't binding on the hub's splines. Also check the mushroom shaped pushrod, that it's not restricting the pressure plate's seating...

 

[5twins]

Yes, from your video, it's pretty obvious your clutch is not engaging. The inner hub shouldn't spin like that unless the lever on the handlebars is pulled in. The inner and outer hubs should be locked together and spin as one until you pull in the clutch lever. There's a series of spacer washers, some behind the outer hub and some in between it and the inner hub. They install in a certain order and there is a specific amount of them. Maybe you have some in the wrong spots or more washers than needed. Here's how they should go .....

 

[Fang]

So with the engine cover back on I tried kicking it and now it's engaging...
If I had gas in it I think it would start up, I also thought the clutch wasn't engaging but I put it in first and tried to spin the tire, it move an inch and stopped like it's engaging??
I swear if I roll it down the driveway it will bump start...
I'm stumped!
Tomorrow I plan on putting oil in her and seeing if i can kick start it, then I'll check to make sure the clutch is engaging, I won't really know till I can zip down the street and see if it slips I guess but I'm for sure going to keep investigating this

 

[Fang]

Well after looking at it a million times I think I've narrowed it down to the clutch being the issue, I'm guessing it's either worn out springs or discs
Right now the thickness of the fiber disc is at 2.88
Looks really low but I'm not sure what the thickness of a new pad is
The springs are 34mm
Does anyone know how big these springs and clutch pads should be?
I also noticed while taking the basket apart I was missing the tab washer that locks the clutch bolt in, I plan on ordering one tonight

Kick start still having the same issue, went to my buddies house to see how much resistance is on his, way more than mine, so much so I could nearly stand on it
I also put his bike in first and tried to push it, super hard to get moving,
Went home and tried mine out and it rolled not that hard
Everything is pointing towards the clutch i think

 

[Fang]

Yes, from your video, it's pretty obvious your clutch is not engaging. The inner hub shouldn't spin like that unless the lever on the handlebars is pulled in. The inner and outer hubs should be locked together and spin as one until you pull in the clutch lever. There's a series of spacer washers, some behind the outer hub and some in between it and the inner hub. They install in a certain order and there is a specific amount of them. Maybe you have some in the wrong spots or more washers than needed. Here's how they should go .....

I looked over this diagram and it seems my clutch is assembled correctly
Still isn't engaging the way it should
It looks like there's a small lip on the pressure plate from where the discs are contacting it, is this normal or could that gap explain why my clutch won't grab

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hey, Fang. Try a forum search on "stackup". There'll be about 20 threads, most about clutches. See if any help in them...

 

[Fang]

Hey, Fang. Try a forum search on "stackup". There'll be about 20 threads, most about clutches. See if any help in them...

THANK YOU TWOMANY!!!!!!!
That didn't solve the issue but it led to a video of how wet clutches work
which made something in my head click
Took out the push mechanism from behind the pressure plate then bolted the plate back on
she grabbed perfectly
took off the left side cover
re installed the push mechanism under the pressure plate
checked out the worm gear, it was all the way backed out
resinstalled the left side cover and it still worked!
I'm kinda stumped, seems as if the push rod maybe wasn't pushing all the way back in to the worm gear, I'm thinking maybe the ball in the worm gear was stuck not allowing the push rod to fully fit in it or something
Either way it works like a charm now
and as an added bonus I now have a pretty good grasp on the clutch system on these bikes
I could only imagine her saying "you wanna ride me, you gotta earn it"
Thanks for all your help!!!!!
Hopefully this helps someone else with the same issue's!

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...That didn't solve the issue but it led to a video of how wet clutches work
which made something in my head click...

Haha, that's how things kinda work around here. Lead a horse to water, ...etc.

Glad you were thirsty.

Now, about that 'click' in your head.......

 

[Fang]

Haha, that's how things kinda work around here. Lead a horse to water, ...etc.

Glad you were thirsty.

Now, about that 'click' in your head.......

Thankfully my thirst isn't quenched and I'm ready for the next challenge/snag

And that click, I swear my brain was stuck in neutral revving on every possible gear and missing every time
Finally must have found first gear I guess
Thanks again for all your help!!