Ignitition tomfoolery

[MikeXS]

Hi gang,

(Please note I rarely know my arse from my tit)

This should be a real simple one to work out.

I've recently installed a hhb pma system to my 1981 US import bike.

I have removed the starter motor (because I think I'm cool) and intend on running a kick only brat style bike.

My question is: as I currently do not have a mechanical ignition timing unit do I need to install a pamco ignition timing system as I am only running a kick start.

I've read a ton of wiring diagrams but I can't seem to work out how I power the ignition system and how it tells the sparks as and when to fire.

Please shed some light.

Mike

 

[figure8]

Kickstart only or not, yes you need a pamco to run the bike. The TCI box will not work with a PMA.

 

[angus67]

What happened to your black box?
I have a 1980, kick only,(because i too, am cool). MY tci works great, rewired rotor works great.
Ive bought a few items from Hugh, and would buy a pma if my rotor gave out, and petes ignition is top notch. If my tci gave out, and my rotor shit the bed , Ide chang over too.
Welcome to cool towne. prepare for bruising on your right inner thigh during the tunning process.

 

[fredintoon]

Hi Mike,
if you installed a PMA you must have removed the stock rotor & stator and the Hall effect ignition triggers along with them so yeah, you got nothin' left to tell your sparks when to happen.
You heard of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?
Hopefully someone who's BTDT will give you good advice on what's needed.
And Angus, I'm so effin' cool that I can push my e-start button and onlookers will still respect me, but HTF can the tuning process bruise one's inner right thigh?
There's a perversion I'm unaware of? At my age? Who'da thought it?

 

[peanut]

Hi gang,



I've recently installed a hhb pma system to my 1981 US import bike.



My question is: as I currently do not have a mechanical ignition timing unit do I need to install a pamco ignition timing system as I am only running a kick start.



Mike

your best bet Mike seeing that you are based in good old Blighty is to install a Boyer Bransden electronic ignition system (the're made in the UK)
If you buy a 'Micro Digital Ignition System ' it provides both your ignition spark and your ignition advance in one unit. Its simple to fit and needs no connection to anything else ie your PMA is an entirely seperate component.

http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/Micro_Digital_Ignition_System.pdf

heres an install and setting up video I made

 

[Brian902]

You should also look at the Probe Engineering unit. no advance rod or bushings required and has a rev limiter built in, sweet.

Worth a look.

Probe Engineering;
http://www.probe-eng.com/servlet/the-XS650--dsh--Std-360-Crankshaft/Categories

Boyer Bransden;
http://www.boyerbransden.com/yamaha.html

 

[peanut]

You should also look at the Probe Engineering unit. no advance rod or bushings required and has a rev limiter built in, sweet.

Worth a look.

Probe Engineering;
http://www.probe-eng.com/servlet/the-XS650--dsh--Std-360-Crankshaft/Categories

Boyer Bransden;
http://www.boyerbransden.com/yamaha.html

looks like the Probe uses the existing Yamaha advance rod which would save the hassle replacing the rod but the Boyer Bransden is over $100 cheaper and made and available in the UK so there are no extra shipping charges and Customes Duty, VAT admin charges etc for importing it.
The Boyer includes a high output dual coil but doesn't include a rev limiter its true.

Used Boyer Bransden kits turn up on ebay for £125 or less

 

[Brian902]

No the advance is electronic, no rod at all. Trigger rotor mounts inside cam when left end bushing is removed.

I thought you UK guys would go BB. Helped install one on a BSA over here. Great system too.

Nice to have options and price is always a factor.

 

[peanut]

I think the Boyer units design and performance is good .......its just a shame about their technical blurb and installation guides which are abysmal

They look like they came with a 1940's Meccanno set having been translated from German.

Now that Pete is producing a module with an electronic advance I'd probably go for that if I were that side of the pond.

 

[aldo5468]

I've got a Boyer Brandsen on my '82, replacing the original TCI ignition. I thought the printed instructions were adequate to install the various parts, but they did not tell how to check the timing on the later TCI-equipped bikes that don't have a mark to show full timing advance (40 degree BTDC - very critical to not exceed). I bought it from 650 Central, and Michael immediately sent me a picture showing how to locate it, so I got it running using what he showed me. It just seems like BB ought to include all of this in its directions, clearly explaining what to do on points bikes and on TCI bikes. To anyone installing a new ignition, it also is a very good opportunity to verify TDC and ensure that the TDC line on your timing tab is spot on.

 

[angus67]

Hi Mike,
if you installed a PMA you must have removed the stock rotor & stator and the Hall effect ignition triggers along with them so yeah, you got nothin' left to tell your sparks when to happen.
You heard of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?
Hopefully someone who's BTDT will give you good advice on what's needed.
And Angus, I'm so effin' cool that I can push my e-start button and onlookers will still respect me, but HTF can the tuning process bruise one's inner right thigh?
There's a perversion I'm unaware of? At my age? Who'da thought it?

Dirty! No Fred, there is no perversion to the inner thigh reference. I was refering to repeated kicking that usually goes along with a bike that will not start. Mines hardtailed, and my starter motor didnt work, was full of oil, thats why I dont have one. As far as the "cool"' It was in jest. I wish I still had estart.
Are you sure they are onlookers? or wondering what the hell that high-pitched gravel sound is when you push the button?

 

[MikeXS]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all of your feedback on this subject.

Just a quick update: I ended up going for the Boyer Bransden electronic ignition system as suggested by Peanut. Your video tutorial was really very helpful too, I believe I upped your viewing figures by at least 5

I Kicked the bike over for the first time in 14 months last night and she roared into life much to my relief. I still think I need to adjust the timing and the valve clearances but for now there were high fives flying round everywhere.

Just mentioning the Valves clearance, the nuts holding the valve screw "thingy" down seems very stiff and I'm a tad scared to put too much pressure on it. Am I being a wimp or is there a technique to getting those suckers loose?

Anyways, thanks again for the advice and espesically to Peanut for the heads up on the Boyer and the vid.

 

[peanut]

Peanut. Your video tutorial was really very helpful too, I believe I upped your viewing figures by at least 5

.

thats what i like to hear

Really good news Mike Its a real relief when they roar into life after a period of problem starting.

The valve adjust locknuts will be very tight. Some folk over-tighten them to prevent them coming loose. You wouldn't want them coming loose for sure .
Just make sure you use a nice tight ring spanner so you don't strip the corners of the nuts.The gaps are tiny and its a frustrating job to get them spot on.

Hope we get to see a vid of your first ride

 

[fredintoon]

- - - the nuts holding the valve screw "thingy" down seems very stiff and I'm a tad scared to put too much pressure on it. Am I being a wimp or is there a technique to getting those suckers loose? - - -

Hi Mike,
those bastards are usually done up real hard because nobody wants them coming loose. The trick is to not allow the wrench to kick sideways and damage the corners when you undo the nuts.
Use a shallow-cranked box-end wrench (thassa ring spanner) and torch it dead flat to get the best pull on the nut with the least chance of the wrench slipping off.
FWIW I bought some discounted sets of el-cheapo "made in India" wrenches at ~ $1 a wrench so I could torch-bend them to make special-purpose tools as required and not cry about the cost or need to butcher my good set.

 

[5twins]

The "valve adjustment special tool" is a big rubber mallet. Tap the end of the wrench with it to break those tight lock nuts loose. Saves busted knuckles for sure. You can also use it to make fine adjustments to the clearances at the end of the process. Many times, after tightening the lock nut, you will find your setting has loosened slightly from where you had it. I attribute this to the screw being pulled up into the rocker by the lock nut. Tightening the lock nut a hair more by tapping the end of the wrench with the mallet (and not holding the adjuster screw) usually will snug your setting back up for you. Not holding the screw allows it to turn (tighter) with the nut.

 

[CDNTX650]

I had a probe ignition, it was pretty sweet. Black box is tiny. Can advance or retard idle timing slightly just using the box for fine tuning. Rev limiter. No advance rod etc.

 

[MikeXS]

Thanks for the tips guys, I especially like the Valve adjustment special tool" being a rubber mallet. I find that the "Rubber mallet special tool" has many many uses through out my build.

Really good news Mike Its a real relief when they roar into life after a period of problem starting

So as with all things I think my excitement of hearing the bike roar up briefly the other night was premature.

Full of gusto I went back to it last night thinking one or two kicks would get her firing up in all her glory. Kick after kick after kick after kick sounding like she was just about to come to life aaaaaaanddd nothing...

Then came the dreaded kick back from the kick pedal... Which quite literally scared the shit out of me and the damn thing nearly broke my leg.

I re-set all of my timings which seemed to solve the kick back issue but she just did not want to start.

I read a few things about retarding my timing as I currently have everything set to TDC on my HHB PMA System should I set it to "Fire" instead of TDC?

Also any advice on kicking it over as I am currently just repeatedly kicking it and kicking it for two or three minutes at a time...praying it fires up.

All advice welcome

 

[peanut]

should start second kick provided everything is set right.
If its taking more than half a dozen kicks there is something very wrong which needs investigating. There is no point in continuing to kick after 5-6 kicks because excess fuel builds up .

How are you starting it ? it should be started with zero throttle and choke. Once it fails to start after a couple of kicks its tempting to 'give it some throttle ' but that will just flood it and make the situation worse.

First thing to do after half a dozen kicks is to remove one of the spark plugs put it against a good earth (ground) and check for a strong blue spark .No spark no start . Make sure you have the spark plugs grounded before you turn the engine over if you have electronic ignition or you'll fry it.

I would check out your wiring and connectors inside the headlamp (which often short out) and also the fuse block . Check the kill switch and wiring and make sure you have 12v at the coils .
if you are getting a spark but there is no fuel on the sparkplugs after lots of kicking then you have a fuel delivery problem

Regarding the timing
When you set the timing for the Boyer bransden ignition system did you line the white dot up in the hole on the stator plate with the ignition set to full advance ?
I made a mistake on my video .I showed it set to minimum advance ie idle. The correction is in the comments section of the video.
You need to line the furthest mark clockwise on the stator before TDC (BTDC) with the mark on the rotor which is maximum advance.
If you set the Boyer at the first mark before TDC then your ignition will be about 10 degrees retarded which will give you kickback.
Apologies for any confusion in my video .

 

[MikeXS]

Thanks Peanut,

All of the electronics all seem to be in good order and I am getting a strong spark from both of the spark plugs when I ground them to the frame.

I did set the Boya system to TDC which may explain why it isn't firing. I will adjust it this eve to the Full advance position as you have suggested and see if this helps.

Thanks for the advice on the kicking too, I will in future refrain from kicking it so many times.

Ill let you know how I get on this eve.

Mike

 

[peanut]

apologies Mike I knew about the error in my video and I've done nothing about it for a year.! I assumed that everyone would notice the correction in the comments section under the video.

It must be set to maximum advance if its to fire at the correct time.

If you have set the Boyer to TDC then the ignition will be sparking 15 degrees too late and its no wonder its not starting sorry.

Set the Boyer stator to the max advance position and I'm sure it will start and run fine .