Just out of curiosity - Airplane Guys

I think that PIO is what happened with the Gripen too. Fly-by-wire (FbW) systems allow an aircraft to utilize smaller stabilizers and a centre of gravity further aft than would normally work properly (thus, having what is known as reduced static stability). This can reduce drag and enhance manoeuverability. Most modern fighters use FbW and many airliners too (which helps them to burn less fuel and increase range and profits).

Interestingly, the first fly-by-wire aircraft to fly was the CF105 Avro Arrow which first flew in 1958. I believe the key reason for using FbW in the Arrow was to help with fuel management during long intercept missions during which the CofG would move quite a bit.
Nd9GcTcpqJjT-JmKia19xV8XagcakVjq24o1JuCdQ&usqp=CAU.jpg

ARROW.jpg
 
Interesting. I was unaware of the Avro Arrow, or that Canada had developed an advanced supersonic interceptor. Have just read the Wikipedia entry and it describes the cancellation of the project, together with plans, tooling and the planes that had been built all to be destroyed. Similar to events which happened in Britain when expensive aircraft programs were cancelled just as or just after they started to show results. Couldn't find reference to fly-by-wire apart from the Stability Augmentation System.

I recall somebody who worked in the British defence industry during the cold war talking about manned aircraft passing in and then out of favour with successive Governments, with projects being cancelled then resurrected. 'We were in, then out, then in again - it was more of a boat race than a defence policy.'
 
Last edited:
Interesting. I was unaware of the Avro Arrow, or that Canada had developed an advanced supersonic interceptor. Have just read the Wikipedia entry and it describes the cancellation of the project, together with plans, tooling and the planes that had been built all to be destroyed. Similar to events which happened in Britain when expensive aircraft programs were cancelled just as or just after they started to show results. Couldn't find reference to fly-by-wire apart from the Stability Augmentation System.

I recall somebody who worked in the British defence industry during the cold war talking about manned aircraft passing in and then out of favour with successive Governments, with project being cancelled then resurrected. 'We were in, then out, then in again - it was more of a boat race than a defence policy.'

Yup - the AVRO Canada Arrow was very hot-stuff in its day and the Orenda Iroquois engine, which would have powered the fully developed Mk-2, was just as revolutionary. The Iroquois used titanium extensively and had been tested on the tail-end of a Boeing B47 loaned to Orenda by the USAF. Apparently, the B47 could fly on the power of the Iroquois alone. It had an engine thrust to weight ratio of 5:1 which was far in excess of any other engine of the day.
Orenda_Iroquois B47 Test.jpg

Sadly, the Iroquois engine had just been mated to the first Arrow Mk. 2 airframe and the airplane was due to fly just a few days after the cancellation. On that day - everyone at AVRO and Orenda in Toronto was laid-off and many key engineers went to the US to work on the NASA space program and to various a/c companies in the US. All of the Arrow Mk.1 and Mk.2 aircraft and all of the Orenda Iroquois engines were cut-up with torches on the ramp at the plants although at least one Iroquois engine and the nose section of one Arrow did survive this act of industrial vandalism and are on display at the National Aviation Museum in Ottawa.
AVRO_Arrow Scrapping.jpg

I know a number of men who are very distinguished, professional and polite gentlemen in their 80s-90s who were on the Arrow and Iroquois programs. These folks simply dissolve into a furious stream of extremely angry "enhanced vocabulary" language at the mere mention of PM John G. Diefenbaker (the politician who was responsible for the program cancellation). I suspect there are many similar folks in the UK who had been on the TSR2 and other programs.

Other Arrow and Iroquois program engineers went to the UK. In fact, a very close friend of mine who is still alive (Herb Saravanamuttoo is now 88 years old) left Canada and went to work for RR and then Bristol in the UK where he did a computer simulation of the Olympus 593 afterburning turbojet engine concentrating on the intakes and exhaust nozzle geometry and scheduling (i.e. programming). This large and very advanced afterburning turbojet was used to power the TSR2 strike-reconnaissance aircraft and more prominently, the Concorde SST.

BTW - the Concorde in regular airline service logged more supersonic time than any other aircraft type in history - despite the fact that only 14 airplanes were put into service by BA and AF (a total of 20 airframes were built). The reason is that every Concorde flight was many hours in duration and nearly all of those flight hours were supersonic, whereas most military aircraft only do supersonic dashes for a few minutes at a time (the SR71 is a key exception to that).

The real magic of the Concorde's sustained supersonic range and performance came from the intakes and exhaust nozzles on those Olympus engines and most specifically, the programming of the intakes and exhaust nozzles as speed, altitude and other flight conditions change. Without that unique intake and exhaust geometry and scheduling, the Concorde's supersonic duration would be measured in minutes and not hours.

With respect to 1950-60's UK policies on manned aircraft - just look-up the Sandys Report - the articles on-which will make your eyes water with their sweeping statements of utterly un-informed BS and faulty predictions of the future - that went-on to cripple the British aircraft industry. Coupled with the conduct of the Diefenbaker government in Canada on the Arrow program, the Sandys Report in the UK is a text book example of why non-technical people should never be given control of highly technical issues.

Politicians - what a curse.
 
Last edited:
Interesting. I was unaware of the Avro Arrow, or that Canada had developed an advanced supersonic interceptor. Have just read the Wikipedia entry and it describes the cancellation of the project, together with plans, tooling and the planes that had been built all to be destroyed. Similar to events which happened in Britain when expensive aircraft programs were cancelled just as or just after they started to show results. Couldn't find reference to fly-by-wire apart from the Stability Augmentation System.

I recall somebody who worked in the British defence industry during the cold war talking about manned aircraft passing in and then out of favour with successive Governments, with project being cancelled then resurrected. 'We were in, then out, then in again - it was more of a boat race than a defence policy.'
Your BAC TSR-2 met a similar fate Raymond. Back then (and still I suppose) American aircraft companies were masters at overselling an aircraft, only to run into long delays and massive cost overruns.

26d9d1ae03f810a828f1942862c2245c.jpg
 
"Bob" was the man.:thumbsup:

I had the honor of visiting with Mr Hoover quite a few times over the years. He always remembered me after our first meeting on the ramp at Reno. Quintessential southern gentleman..

My favorite story about him was a time he was signing autographs on the ramp after a performance when a man came up to him and told him he would like to speak to him privately. Mr Hoover told him he would have to wait until he finished talking to the fans. 45 minutes later he finally was able to go talk to the man standing under the wing of a plane to escape the heat. The guy introduced himself. Orville Wright. They went on to become great friends.
 
Yes, the TSR2 is the most notorious of the cancelled programs. Supposedly a world-beater, when Britain could still contemplate producing such a thing.

You mention cost overruns - so infamous on defence projects! When the Cold War was first declared dead (some think it's only in a coma) it was suggested that UK defence companies might switch over to making consumer goods. One commentator very plausibly suggested that if the UK defence avionics industry decided to make a television set, the result would be:

the highest definition picture in the world

able to pick up signal from anywhere on the planet

mounted on it's own all-terrain vehicle & require four operators

able to run on mains, battery or the vehicle's own generator

six years late into production

projected price £2m per set, but still sold at a loss

never actually work

cancelled just as the final problems are resolved.
 
Only curse worse than politicians running a country is the military doing it...............

As Churchill said:

‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
 
I had the honor of visiting with Mr Hoover quite a few times over the years. He always remembered me after our first meeting on the ramp at Reno. Quintessential southern gentleman..

My favorite story about him was a time he was signing autographs on the ramp after a performance when a man came up to him and told him he would like to speak to him privately. Mr Hoover told him he would have to wait until he finished talking to the fans. 45 minutes later he finally was able to go talk to the man standing under the wing of a plane to escape the heat. The guy introduced himself. Orville Wright. They went on to become great friends.
Wow how cool was that
 
The first time I saw him fly the Strike Commander it brought back memories and strong emotions of flying in my family's Aero Commander with my dad when I was very young. He ,along with my grandfather and several great uncles were killed in crash during a violent storm in western Arkansas in 1962 so I'm sure that was why Mr. Hoover remembered me among the thousands of people he met every year.

Anyone who saw his performances in the Commander where awestruck with his abilities .
There are videos on youtube of his performances and a great documentary about him that I think Harrison Ford was behind. Well worth watching.
 
Last edited:
The first time I saw him fly the Strike Commander it brought back memories and strong emotions of flying in my family's Aero Commander with my dad when I was very young. He ,along with my grandfather and several great uncles were killed in crash during a violent storm in western Arkansas in 1962 so I'm sure that was why he remembered me among the thousands of people he met every year.

Anyone who saw his performances in the Commander where awestruck with his abilities .
There are videos on youtube of his performances and a great documentary about him that I think Harrison Ford was behind. Well worth watching.
Saw his performance quiet a few times. In 2005 he gave a talk at Oshkosh that had us all transfixed. It was scheduled for an hour... he talked for two and a half. Usually not my style... but I stood in line for 30 min after to shake his hand. Just an all around good guy. RIP Bob.
 
Yes, the TSR2 is the most notorious of the cancelled programs. Supposedly a world-beater, when Britain could still contemplate producing such a thing.
Oh, I don't know. When you stand up close to a Tornado, there's something oddly familiar about some of the lines of it.

Makes me wonder how on earth the GE Lightning ever saw the light of day and went on to be such a success in its role; I suppose the government of the day was keen to show / allow what could be done and provided the funding.
 
Oh, I don't know. When you stand up close to a Tornado, there's something oddly familiar about some of the lines of it.

Makes me wonder how on earth the GE Lightning ever saw the light of day and went on to be such a success in its role; I suppose the government of the day was keen to show / allow what could be done and provided the funding.

I could be wrong, but I think that the English Electric (later BAC) Lightning was too far along in the development process to be killed - even by "Drunken" Duncan Sandys and his infamous report.

The Lightning was a remarkable airplane - truly one of the quickest climbing of the 1950s hotrod interceptors and it also had a remarkably high operational ceiling. With its unique "UP-DOWN" mounted RR Avon afterburning turbojets, it was a challenging airplane to repair and service (lucky for Jim that he left the UK for the USA as a young lad...;) ), but it didn't suffer from the asymmetric thrust issues of most other twin engine aircraft.

Here is a Mark Felton video on the Lightning and its capabilities (well worth a watch IMO):
 
Last edited:
Another very hot RAF aircraft of the Cold War was the Handley Page Victor.

One of the three V-Force bombers (along with the Vickers Valiant and the more famous AVRO Vulcan), the Victor had several capabilities that were quite remarkable for the such a large aircraft designed in the days just 3-5 years after 300 MPH piston-driven bombers such as the Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling, B17 and B24....(the Victor prototype first flew in 1952). For example, it was one of the fastest large subsonic aircraft ever built with a top speed of well over 620 MPH, a critical Mach number of more than 0.95 and a service ceiling of more than 56,000 ft.

 
Last edited:
...and how about that Blackburn (later Hawker Siddeley and finally, BAC) Buccaneer?

I have read that the "Buc" is one of the fastest subsonic aircraft on the deck and with its high wing loading (lbs/sq. ft) it gave a pretty smooth ride at under 100 feet. With the twin RR Spey turbofans, fuel burn in not too crazy (no reheat) and so the range was good. The RAF Buccaneers always did well at NATO exercises in the wilds of Nevada and Alberta at the Cold Lake range - and were apparently extremely difficult to intercept (perfect if it had been necessary to go after "those other people").

These videos tell some good stories (although some of the technical details in the first one are not quite correct):


 
Last edited:
I have read that the "Buc" is one of the fastest subsonic aircraft on the deck and with its high wing loading (lbs/sq. ft) it gave a pretty smooth ride at under 100 feet. With the twin RR Spey turbofans, fuel burn in not too crazy (no reheat) and so the range was good. The RAF Buccaneers always did well at NATO exercises in the wilds of Nevada and Alberta at the Cold Lake range - and were apparently extremely difficult to intercept

Incredible aircraft.

In my teenage days - early '70s - used to cycle through the hills in the Scottish Borders with me mates. Sometimes, on a road along the side of a valley, a Buccaneer or a pair of Buccaneers, would go past below us. Moving rather quickly. At the head of the valley, they would pull up over the hill and go inverted as they vanished from view. You didn't hear them coming, but you heard them depart.

Talking to an RAF pilot friend some years later, he said the Buccaneer crews used to do a slow barrel roll as they followed hilly terrain, so they were RWU at the bottom of a valley and USD as they crested a rise. 'That way, you were always in positive G and safely kept your breakfast down!'

Here's a video, Buccaneer pilot recounting his experiences at Red Flag:

 
Last edited:
Oh yes, the Mitchell was quite a machine indeed! Lots of guns and bombs for our oponents.

Hmmmm....the Pacific Princess is certainly very pretty. Somebody really knew a fair bit about the anatomy of the fairer sex. I have a book on WW-2 nose art. Some of it is fairly primitive but many of the squadron artists had real talent and a vivid imagination.

Interestingly, the British, Canadian and American aircraft usually featured a humourous slogan and a woman in various states of undress (nice!), the German nose art was often a symbol like a heart or a stag or wolf's head while the Russians usually painted on a BS patriotic slogans such as "Join the Great People's Revolution" or "Long live the Worker's Paradise!".

It does seem sad - all that sacrifice just to keep a bunch of gangsters in charge for the next 50-odd years and then of course....Putin.

....I wonder how they feel about the worker's paradise now that Hitler Mk. 2 is their leader.....

Oooops - no politics....sorry, my bad. :D
 
Back
Top