I got my motor somewhat taken apart. I removed the clutch basket and the #4 gear with all the associated parts.. I did this to perform the e-start fix by bending the clip. I have decided to keep it kick only. I need to reassemble the engine. can I just leave all those gears and springs out?
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
- remove the starter-you will need a plug to fill the hole
- remove the gears behind the plate-lhs-behind the front chain cog #15-22 and #27
- do not touch # 10-14 unless youre splitting the cases-if you do touch them you will have to split the cases
- remove # 1-9
- remove the gears behind the plate-lhs-behind the front chain cog #15-22 and #27
- do not touch # 10-14 unless youre splitting the cases-if you do touch them you will have to split the cases
- remove # 1-9
for awhile I was running without the starter. already had the block off plate installed. and I remove the gears that connect to the starter. I was mainly asking if I could leave out the #4 gear and everything that goes along with it.. (without splitting the cases)
Yes. You have already done much of what inxs has described. pulling the 3/4 gears set is all thats left to pull without splitting the case.
In the diagam the parts numbered 11,13,14 need to stay. If you remove them shaft 10 can move sideways allowing gear 12 to fall off the shaft. This could lock the engine. So aas inxs said leave 10 through 14 in place.
In the diagam the parts numbered 11,13,14 need to stay. If you remove them shaft 10 can move sideways allowing gear 12 to fall off the shaft. This could lock the engine. So aas inxs said leave 10 through 14 in place.
cooltouch
XS650 Addict
If I could ask here --
I've decided to remove the starter from my '78 project bike, and have already bought the blank plug for it. I'll also be splitting the cases to add MikesXS's overdrive 5th gear. So, given this, I take it I can remove everything shown above, including 10-14?
I've decided to remove the starter from my '78 project bike, and have already bought the blank plug for it. I'll also be splitting the cases to add MikesXS's overdrive 5th gear. So, given this, I take it I can remove everything shown above, including 10-14?
- yes, although if you ever decide at some stage to use an e-start, say you have an accident and stuff up your right knee, or want to sell and the buyer wants one you will need to split the cases to reinsert 10-14...theres not much weight there, doesnt interfere with anything and it keeps your options open
cooltouch
XS650 Addict
Thanks for the replies. I'll be having to split the cases regardless. This motor is getting a 750cc kit with 10.25:1 pistons, and I have figured the starter would be just about useless for this amount of compression. Hopefully, my right knee will handle it. 
I've corresponded with another guy who has this same 750 kit. He told me that his starter won't turn the engine over, and that it is a job, but at least do-able to kick it. I've been thinking about milling a bit off the tops of the pistons to reduce the compression somewhat, but that's a topic for another discussion.
I've corresponded with another guy who has this same 750 kit. He told me that his starter won't turn the engine over, and that it is a job, but at least do-able to kick it. I've been thinking about milling a bit off the tops of the pistons to reduce the compression somewhat, but that's a topic for another discussion.
- if your compression is high enough to cause starting problems either with e-start and or kick you could think about installing a decompression setup from an XS2 or TXA, requires replacing the left exhaust rocker with one that has a nipple and the left hand rocker inspection panel that has the operating mechanism in it
pamcopete
Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple
cooltouch,
It's probably the battery that does not have enough power to turn the engine over.
It's probably the battery that does not have enough power to turn the engine over.
Cooltouch, a healthy XS650 starter will spin a 750 with 10.25:1 CR just fine. Dwayne Burge (veteran flat track racer, used to run 650 Central for Michael Morse) and I both use the "electric boot" in high compression big bore motors due to gimped up right legs. A heavier starter cable helps.
cooltouch
XS650 Addict
Hmmm . . . very interesting. Mayhap I need to rethink things. I never use the e-start on my '81 cuz it has the stock coils and the whimpy 14ah battery, and while it will spin the starter, there isn't enough juice left to give the coils enough oomph for a hot spark. As a result, the motor cranks, but seldom starts with the electric foot.
So, are you still running the 14ah battery? Do you have a source for a heavier starter cable? Maybe an automotive one I can get at O'Reilly's or something?
Yep, I use an OEM-replacement 14ah AGM battery. I made the starter and ground cables using big gauge appliance connectors silver soldered to heavy wire salvaged from a triplex 220V appliance cable. I also ohmed out the starter motor to be sure it was in spec and gave the commutator a good cleaning. With a power-hungry Boyer ignition run straight from battery via a 10A fuse and a relay triggered by the kill switch, the motor (700 cc's, CR~10.25:1) spins and fires when temps drop into the 20's. The kickstart hole in the cover is sealed, shaft and gears removed.
cooltouch
XS650 Addict
I'm thinking that maybe cables for 6-volt applications might also work.
I'll most likely be using one of Pamco Pete's ignitions with the coils that come in the kit(s) that MikesXS sells. Dunno how hungry it is compared to the Boyer.
I'll most likely be using one of Pamco Pete's ignitions with the coils that come in the kit(s) that MikesXS sells. Dunno how hungry it is compared to the Boyer.
pamcopete
Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple
cooltouch,
The PAMCO itself uses .010 Amp of power. That's 10 milliamperes. A 2.5 Ohms coil will use 14.5/2.5 = 5.8 Amps when it is on. The 60 degree dwell angle rotor means that the coil is on for 2 X 60 = 120 degrees or 120/360 = .33 or 33% of the time, so the average current for the coil is .33 X 5.8 = 1.9 Amps + the .010 PAMCO current for a total of 1.91 Amps.
If you use Mikes 17-6922 coil that produces 37,000 volts, its primary resistance is 4.5 Ohms so it will draw only 3.2 Amps when it is on, or an average of .33 X 3.2 = 1.06 Amps. As the coil heats up, its resistance increases, so for all practical purposes, you are talking 1 Amp.
The PAMCO itself will also work all the way down to 3 volts. It's the coil that needs the voltage, but PAMCO's have been tested down to 5 volts and they will still produce a spark that's good enough to fire the engine.
I also think that some other systems require a minimum engine speed to work, like 200 RPM. The PAMCO will work with any speed. Like, 1/2 of an RPM, so it is excellent for starting if the engine will not turn over very fast.
So, here's the spec:
Power required: 5 to 15 Volts DC @ 1 Amp (with the 17-6822 coil)
Minimum Rotation speed: No minimum
Output Voltage with the 17-6822 coil: 37,000 V @ 14.5 input. 15,000v @ 6 Volts.
Amount of backward rotation of the crank to produce "kickback" during a kick start: 240 degrees. This spec is important for kick start bikes. The points system can produce a dangerous kickback with as little as 1 degree of backwards rotation of the crankshaft.
The PAMCO itself uses .010 Amp of power. That's 10 milliamperes. A 2.5 Ohms coil will use 14.5/2.5 = 5.8 Amps when it is on. The 60 degree dwell angle rotor means that the coil is on for 2 X 60 = 120 degrees or 120/360 = .33 or 33% of the time, so the average current for the coil is .33 X 5.8 = 1.9 Amps + the .010 PAMCO current for a total of 1.91 Amps.
If you use Mikes 17-6922 coil that produces 37,000 volts, its primary resistance is 4.5 Ohms so it will draw only 3.2 Amps when it is on, or an average of .33 X 3.2 = 1.06 Amps. As the coil heats up, its resistance increases, so for all practical purposes, you are talking 1 Amp.
The PAMCO itself will also work all the way down to 3 volts. It's the coil that needs the voltage, but PAMCO's have been tested down to 5 volts and they will still produce a spark that's good enough to fire the engine.
I also think that some other systems require a minimum engine speed to work, like 200 RPM. The PAMCO will work with any speed. Like, 1/2 of an RPM, so it is excellent for starting if the engine will not turn over very fast.
So, here's the spec:
Power required: 5 to 15 Volts DC @ 1 Amp (with the 17-6822 coil)
Minimum Rotation speed: No minimum
Output Voltage with the 17-6822 coil: 37,000 V @ 14.5 input. 15,000v @ 6 Volts.
Amount of backward rotation of the crank to produce "kickback" during a kick start: 240 degrees. This spec is important for kick start bikes. The points system can produce a dangerous kickback with as little as 1 degree of backwards rotation of the crankshaft.
Last edited:
cooltouch
XS650 Addict
Hey Pete,
Thanks for all the data. Welp, so now it looks like I definitely should rethink things. I was kinda counting on losing the weight of the starter system, but on the other hand, I 'spect I'd rather have the viable option of using a reliable electric foot than having to kickstart a 10.25:1 750.
Thanks for all the data. Welp, so now it looks like I definitely should rethink things. I was kinda counting on losing the weight of the starter system, but on the other hand, I 'spect I'd rather have the viable option of using a reliable electric foot than having to kickstart a 10.25:1 750.
