New Engine too Tight ?

Oh for sure... All questions are valid in my opinion when we are trying to help each other.
Also the difference between no cam chain and yes cam-chain is like 12.5 ft lb vs 4 ft lb.So Something was binding.
I will get it figured out this time and report what I find. I need to stop cuttin corners and not worry about a $450 difference in the total cost of the restoration but thats hard to do when there are no 70 /71 front fenders availible except a pitted one for $320 on ebay. hahaha thats ok though it looks fair at a glance and the bike will be complete if flawed.
Also pitifully few parts vendors out there.
 
wow ! lots have happened since I last looked in :D

Looks like you just need to track down which part of the engine is tight now which should be easy enough now you have it partially stripped.

Sounds like the problem must lie with the camshaft and associated components . If the crank spins freely with the camchain removed and the camshaft spins also then the problem must lie with the valve train or the camchain rubbing when under tension .All the valves are adjusted for maximum slack I take it ?
 
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If you need a torque wrench for the low values they can be made quite easily and then calibrated with some weights. I made the following today for the range 0 - 12ftlb:

TWrench1.jpg


I will be making another soon to cover the range 0 - 25ftlb. The down side on this design is you need to be able to see the pointer. Years ago I made one with a pen mechanism attached to the pointer and it clicked when it got to the correct value - unfortunately I have lost it. Hope I do not need that screw driver tomorrow?
 
Scooterbrain said:
Good Advice 650 Skull. And you were right.
I need to get out of a hurry and remember that this is a hobby and I have all the time in the world to get it right. It didn't feel right and it was not. tks for the kick.
Click to expand...

I would love to say i have finally learned to listen to nagging thoughts,................But ...........................And i don't know how many times in my life have thought to my self, i need to do, or look, or check this, and then dismissed it or thought "na she will be right" and not listened to my self, and sure enough................................ If its on your mind then there is a good chance it needs addressing.

Glad you got it sorted
 
Well almost sorted. Its torn down and I didnt yet determine why the cam chain is a drag but I have a more current issue. I determined that I actually have a 10 over bore and pistons that match really well If you measure where you are supposed to BUT. I bought the werong rings and am about to pull the trigger on OEM rings from 2 different ebay guys at 39 and 49 per hole because Mikes has a description that is totally confusing. on their First oversize rings. They show the standard and the 05-0018. description on the 0018 is as follows.....
Piston Ring Set - 1st. Oversize - 0.25mm. (for 1 piston) Fits: TX/XS650's 74-84 (447 & 533 type engines - 1974-84). OEM Ref.# 447-11610-10 Quality Made in Japan on all new tooling.Note: 447 type rings interchange with European 533 rings but pistons do not. 447 rings do not interchange with original 256 rings used on 1970-73 models.
How can they not carry a description for a correct first over set for the XS1. Dont really like the site much.
 
Yeah that was confusing I know but anyway it looks like Mikes does not carry first oversize for the xs1. btw I will work out the cam drag I am sure.
 
Paul Sutton said:
If you need a torque wrench for the low values they can be made quite easily and then calibrated with some weights. I made the following today for the range 0 - 12ftlb:

View attachment 91402

I will be making another soon to cover the range 0 - 25ftlb. The down side on this design is you need to be able to see the pointer. Years ago I made one with a pen mechanism attached to the pointer and it clicked when it got to the correct value - unfortunately I have lost it. Hope I do not need that screw driver tomorrow?
Click to expand...
 
Yep. that's called a Beam type torque wrench. My first ever one was like that. I looked for one last week and didnt see one on first pass. amazing that you made one. I did get a click type one though that goes down to 5 lb and that told me what I needed to know. I had barely 4 lb without the cam chain and 12.5 with it. I will sort out the tight spot when I go back with the new Correct rings.
BTW to all... A final measure and comparison By me here, and at the Machine shop shows that the bores are exactly 10 over at the bottom and the clearance between them and the piston point measured just below the wist pin boss is exactly .0015 or 1.5/1000. A good fit. So long story short I bought std rings in error and they will be Free to the first person who might need them as they will be of no use to me.

tks again
 
TwoManyXS1Bs said:
And this one, where the guys have found a reasonable alternative to pistons and rings.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/cheap-piston-sets-on-ebay.26971/
Click to expand...
If you mean reasonably priced alternative, I just installed rings from the guy in the first link (cruzinimage_co) and they're doing fine. I bought them only after major research where everybody on every forum I could find is saying the rings (and pistons if I remember) are just fine. Just $35 for two sets of rings.

Scooterbrain said:
So long story short I bought std rings in error and they will be Free to the first person who might need them as they will be of no use to me.
Click to expand...
Looks like I could have gotten rings cheaper still :)
 
650Skull said:
I would love to say i have finally learned to listen to nagging thoughts,................But ...........................And i don't know how many times in my life have thought to my self, i need to do, or look, or check this, and then dismissed it or thought "na she will be right" and not listened to my self, and sure enough................................ If its on your mind then there is a good chance it needs addressing.

Glad you got it sorted
Click to expand...
Mystery Solved !
Ok ,so here was the problem with the cam chain being too tight.
Defective parts and my failure to pay attention. I bought from Mikes XS a full set of Chrome upper end bolts and the two that screw into the front of the Cylinder bank, for the front tensioner bolts to pass through, were 1/8 inch longer that the original ones. This moved the front guide inwards towards the chain. Used the old ones. Issue corrected. Oh and also I did finish proper fitment of the New Old Stock .010 rings. I measured everything per the manual and all gaps and clearances are spot on.
The new issue may nor be too bad but I am not yet comfortable with it. The new cam chain came with a master link with soft tips so the rivet tool spreads the tips out and did a good job of securing the keeper. So when tearing it back down I had to break that link and order a new link from MikesXS.
The metal in the new link is nowhere near as soft and will not really mushroom out the tip perceivable. It does not slip right on like the other one. Using the rivet tool I was able to press them together with force " a press fit".
On one I went a bit too far and had to reverse the tool and press it back through till even. At one point I did take it back off and repeat the process and currently it does seem aligned and properly pressed tightly still into the side link. What concern's me is that this metal is too hard for me to mushroom it out so apparently it is installed as intended. I would almost feel better with a link that uses a clip.. What do you think ? Thank You.
 
Scooter, I wouldn't trust that link. What brand is your cam chain? It's either Tsubaki or DID, unless it's Chiwanese junk. If it's Tsubaki or DID, correct factory links are easily available from 650 Central, Hoos Racing, and other reputable vendors. If it's a Chiwanese repop, it needs to be tossed.
 
+1 on Grizld1's point. These engines stand up very well - if assembled correctly with good parts. There is no point in putting the whole project in peril for the sake of one part be-it a timing chain or a wrist pin retainer.
 
Its a Tsubaki chain. The original link was tossed when I took it back apart. I do think that its gonna be ok now that I learned more about using the chain tool. Tell me what you think.
I chucked the tool up again , this time with a blank on the factory side and then on the other side I used the rounded Dimple pilot or arbor if u will and cranked down on it again.
I put a micrometer on the factory side of the rivet and measured the broadest point where they pressed it. then mine measured much less. Then I used the dimpling tool with a lot of force and I have very nice dimples now on my side and my side is now consistently 3 to 4 thousants broader than the factory side. What do ya think ? Looks about proper now.
 
Scooterbrain said:
Its a Tsubaki chain. The original link was tossed when I took it back apart. I do think that its gonna be ok now that I learned more about using the chain tool. Tell me what you think.
I chucked the tool up again , this time with a blank on the factory side and then on the other side I used the rounded Dimple pilot or arbor if u will and cranked down on it again.
I put a micrometer on the factory side of the rivet and measured the broadest point where they pressed it. then mine measured much less. Then I used the dimpling tool with a lot of force and I have very nice dimples now on my side and my side is now consistently 3 to 4 thousants broader than the factory side. What do ya think ? Looks about proper now.
Click to expand...
Also If I git the steel to spread wouldnt that be better than the spread on the copper tipped rivet that came with the chain ? just asking
 
Aldo I needed to know what to expect from these obviously two different types of rivets. The copper spreads easy and the steel is tougher to dimple or should it not be dimpled and only press fit.
 
I will have to ask the guys at MikesXS what is up. The 01-8801 shown on the website has the copper tips but that is not what they sent. it says it is for the Tsubaki chain but its not the same as what is pictured and what came with the chain 3 months ago. It may work as fitted since I got a good dimple on it but I certainly want it right and there is no hurry at all.
 
Scooterbrain said:
Mystery Solved !
... I bought from Mikes XS a full set of Chrome upper end bolts and the two that screw into the front of the Cylinder bank, for the front tensioner bolts to pass through, were 1/8 inch longer that the original ones. This moved the front guide inwards towards the chain. Used the old ones. Issue corrected...
Click to expand...

Good heads-up on those "Cylinder Guide Bar Nuts" Scooterbrain!
Is this the part?

https://www.mikesxs.net/yamaha-xs650-nut-cylinder-guide-bar-pk-2-oem-256-11395-02-00.html

CylinderGuideBarNut.jpg


We had a member experiencing similar difficulty a couple years ago, and it was noted that those nuts spaced the front guide out a bit, but none of us thought it was wrong...
 
TwoManyXS1Bs said:
Good heads-up on those "Cylinder Guide Bar Nuts" Scooterbrain!
Is this the part?

https://www.mikesxs.net/yamaha-xs650-nut-cylinder-guide-bar-pk-2-oem-256-11395-02-00.html

View attachment 92076

We had a member experiencing similar difficulty a couple years ago, and it was noted that those nuts spaced the front guide out a bit, but none of us thought it was wrong...
Click to expand...
Well that looks like them for sure but I dont have the packaging any more to verify a part number. What I purchased was all of the Top End Bolts together packaged as a kit. Making it worse too was that the chain and guides were dry. It may have worn in and lubed up fine but I feel much better letting the adjuster do the work of providing tension.
 

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