Not NEUTRAL about finding neutral getting p!##*% actually

[wwitten]

Would advise getting a couple of your favorite beverages before reading this post......might be a long read.

I like many here hoped to bring this girl back to life, and although I've faced many issues and spent way to much money and time chasing this dream, have to thank this forum and you all again for your assistance.

I also like many here have had and continue to have issues with finding neutral when the bike is hot, engine running, but stopped. In fact really usually have trouble shifting into any gear once stopped. If bike up on center stand whether cold or hot, no issues up or down shifting. If bike is moving typically haven't had any issues either, but always when at a dead stop with engine running.

What I have is a TX650A frame with I believe based upon serial number a XS650D engine with the linked Mikuni carbs.


What I have done:

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Have adjusted the clutch push lever assembly and the clutch cable until I find myself dreaming about it. Both before I ride, during the ride and afterwards finding no issues other than maybe a little cable stretch at the clutch lever, which I adjust out.

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Pulled the right side cover off, checked the gear selectors adjustment/springs and no problems up or down shifting with clutch disassembled. No binding no scaring...everything looks great.

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Checked friction plates, my micrometer indicated a thickness of around .013 close to minimum in manual of .0122. So I ordered the Kevlar plates from Mikes XS. Didn't change as of yet because the new plates measured about the same thickness. Maybe an issue with my micrometer?

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Checked the clutch spring well within tolerances.

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Replaced the Philip head spring screws with allen bolts.

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Checked and double checked position of washers 2-2-2 and per diagram in tech section.

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Aligned pressure plate to clutch boss

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Stretched out the neutral detent spring.

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Lubed cable and clutch push screw mechanism


What I have replaced:

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Clutch cable, clutch lever holder bolt and cable adjuster

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Clutch push screw & housing (original had small crack in plastic)

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Exchanged clutch pushrod original was a two piece tried a one piece type (yes the ball bearing is there)

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Replaced clutch basket because I broke an ear off of original removing it the first time.

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Cleaned everything even though no real crud anywhere, internals look pretty pristine.

Have tried rocking the bike back and forth in gear with the clutch disengaged which naturally can't do much to enhance the shifting.

Have noticed that if I increase engine RPM to 3000+ shifting is sometimes enabled, but finding neutral????

Other than breaking down the lower half, which is probably within my quickly diminishing mechanical abilities, but probably really is not on my agenda, looking for........THOUGHTS..... SUGGESTIONS

Any members in the northern Illinois area or references of anyone nearby that would have more knowledge and experience than me?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Finding neutral can be a problem sometimes. The real reason, is simply that there is not enough clutch plate separation.

I drilled a second hole in the worm gear operating lever. It gives greater plate separation, but is slightly harder to pull the lever.

Another thing that occurs, is the aluminum engine parts, expand much more than the steel long pushrod. This causes the freeplay at the clutch lever to increase as the engine warms up. After the engine heats up and I see the free play getting bigger, I re-adjust the free play at the lever while I'm riding. Keep the free play at 1/16".

When you adjust at the worm gear, (go inward until contact) only back out a small amount, so that you can get maximum push rod motion.

I have no trouble finding neutral with engine hot or cold.

Your measurements for the friction plates are not correct. Normal is 0.118" and wear limit is 0.106". The plates (steel or friction) on these bikes don't wear very much, as many have low use and low miles/kms.

 

[wwitten]

I drilled a second hole in the worm gear operating lever. It gives greater plate separation, but is slightly harder to pull the lever.

Might have to give that a try...actually think the one from Mikes might already have the second hole.


Another thing that occurs, is the aluminum engine parts, expand much more than the steel long pushrod. This causes the freeplay at the clutch lever to increase as the engine warms up. After the engine heats up and I see the free play getting bigger, I re-adjust the free play at the lever while I'm riding. Keep the free play at 1/16".

Any thoughts on the one piece rod vs two piece? Have adjusted free play at level constantly

When you adjust at the worm gear, (go inward until contact) only back out a small amount, so that you can get maximum push rod motion.

Well understood, even played with the worm gear adjustment before put right hand cover back on to see the actual movement on the pressure plate and clutch plates. Not much to say the least

Your measurements for the friction plates are not correct. Normal is 0.118" and wear limit is 0.106". The plates (steel or friction) on these bikes don't wear very much, as many have low use and low miles/kms.[/QUOTE]

Page 31 Yamaha Service Manual specs friction plates normal at 0.140" (3.5mm) and minimum at 0.122" (3.1mm)Is this another error in their manual or our you referring to the plain steel clutch plates

Thanks

 

[Grinder]

What kind of oil are you using?

 

[wwitten]

What kind of oil are you using?

Forgot to mention that, using Valvoline motorcycle non-synthetic JASO for wet clutch.
Also for the hell of it replaced the clutch needle bearing with the so refered to a new and improved Mikes XS version

 

[Grinder]

What happens if your at a dead stop engine running and you shut it down. Can you then find neutral?

 

[wwitten]

What happens if your at a dead stop engine running and you shut it down. Can you then find neutral?

If at a dead stop and I kill the engine, can up shift, down shift, find neutral, just like it should be.

 

[Grinder]

Did you align the dot with the hole when reassembling the clutch?

 

[wwitten]

Did you align the dot with the hole when reassembling the clutch?

Yep pressure plate hole aligned with the clutch center dot

 

[650Skull]

A good read on clutch's here

The dogs on the clutch basket can get groves over time, Can be smoothed out with a file but be carfull not to overdo it or it could create side to side play.

Steel plates get worn creating a sharp edge on one side. If dissembling the clutch, use a small Warding file to take the sharp edge off. Time consuming. Make sure the plates go back in with the face facing the way it come out.

Another thing to check. If a 1 piece push rod has been installed the PO could have lost a ball bearing, and if it has been replaced with a slightly smaller ball bearing that will cause you to have clutch problems.

Happened to a bike i have. Gears worked great till i started it and tried to ride off

 

[wwitten]

A good read on clutch's here

Thanks read and reread that post and others learned much before disassembling the clutch

The dogs on the clutch basket can get groves over time, Can be smoothed out with a file but be carfull not to overdo it or it could create side to side play.

Dogs were in good shape did smooth out any rough spots but didn't remove much material

Steel plates get worn creating a sharp edge on one side. If dissembling the clutch, use a small Warding file to take the sharp edge off. Time consuming. Make sure the plates go back in with the face facing the way it come out.

Smoothed out the rough edged side of the stamped plate. May or may not faced all steel plates the same way. Could not facing steel plates in same direction cause issues?

Another thing to check. If a 1 piece push rod has been installed the PO could have lost a ball bearing, and if it has been replaced with a slightly smaller ball bearing that will cause you to have clutch problems.

Never though of checking bearing size, both I took out were the same size, but its possible they were both sized wrong. Will check when I disassemble

Happened to a bike i have. Gears worked great till i started it and tried to ride off

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[wwitten]

Well gave the tools a rest yesterday, reviewed the suggestions here and this morning suddenly thought that maybe the chain was to tight and pulling on the gear box. When I reinstalled the rear wheel, I utilized my son who is 40+ pounds heavier than my bony self to set the chain tightness. Readjusted chain to my weight and thought I had it but when I got the 4 mile mark (seems to be a benchmark) in the ride the inability to shift while at a complete stop raised it ugly head again. Came back, checked the clutch adjustment, within specs, even tried tightening the cable way past to 1/16" slack point to try to increase the plate separation...no luck.

Could the cable be stretching that much...I don't have much room on the lever adjustment left, maybe < 1/4". This is a new Mikes XS cable and saw that many here say there are better alternatives. Might just try the old cable just to see.

Next alternative I guess is retiredgentlemans suggestion of changing the worm gear lever attachment point.

I also discovered last night while cleaning up my work area that the replacement clutch basket internals were actually the newer model with the spring plate and it looks like it may be intact. Didn't notice that when I received because the seller indicated that it wasn't the newer version and it was so covered with crud I just cleaned off the exterior of the basket and went into assembly mode. Will try to clean that up and see if it is viable. I know many posts here suggest upgrading the clutch basket internals.....we shall see.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Maybe something helpful in here: http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28313

 

[wwitten]

Maybe something helpful in here: http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28313

Thanks, yes a good read and reread. Before I replaced right side cover, adjusted clutch worm gear and cable and saw how small the travel of the pressure plate was when the clutch was pulled in. Plates did separate but not by much.

 

[wwitten]

Would appreciate when someone has time if they could check the amount of rotational pull that can be seen by checking the position of the adjusting screw in worm screw clutch adjuster. I have attached a picture of mine for comparision. I have 4 marks on the left hand cover, they are moving counterclockwise from A to D:

A-Position of screw, clutch lever out
B-Position of screw, clutch lever in, clutch cable loose
C-Position of screw, clutch lever in, clutch cable adjusted
D-Position of screw, clutch lever in, clutch cable as tight as possible

Don't need pictures or any measurements, just want to know if the rotational pull of my clutch lever, cable, worm gear is in the ballpark.

Thanks
Bill

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Those travel distances look about right. Check this thread for proper worm assembly:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28345

 

[wwitten]

Thanks for the double check on the travel distances. Reviewed the post and believe the adjuster is in correct position, but will double check before pulling the right hand cover off and checking the ball bearing size. Going step by step. Going to find an answer somehow.....Thanks again

 

[wwitten]

OK continuing to check and double check.

First picture of worm gear shows what I believe is correct installed position and ball bearing is in place

Second picture shows push rods Top =2 piece original w/ 5/16 bearing, Bottom new 1 piece from Mikes. Mikes is maybe 1/32 longer and the tapered end is shorter, but other than that see no issues here.

Time to dump the oil...get some dinner and open up the right side.

 

[Grinder]

Did you ever try the old clutch cable? Never heard anything good about Mike's cables. A Motion Pro cable has a much thicker inner wire.

 

[wwitten]

Did you ever try the old clutch cable? Never heard anything good about Mike's cables. A Motion Pro cable has a much thicker inner wire.

Did pull the old cable out of the spare parts box lubed it up with 30 weight oil and have it waiting in the wings. Measured old vs new (Mikes) and can see no difference other than thickness of the inner wire. Pull should be the same.