Oil Pump Drive

[gggGary]

Hmm. Technique is a biggie doing this. Kinda late but IMHO I'd make sure any raised edges at the gouge were removed and call it good. I feel like a rain cloud but suspect things are worse now than when you started. Looks like you have achieved some pretty good rounding off here and there, tho pics are deceiving. These pumps are pretty robust and damage tolerant.
I think were I to attempt a resurface of the face on the cover I'd have paper on a flat mandrel mounted in a low speed drill or better, a drill press with the cover supported on the table to maintain parallel to the mandrel. I'd work with water on 600 wet or dry and a very slow spindle speed. I'd be happiest if I could slide the cover around a bit to change where the mandrel centers on the pump surface.
Another method would be to a use 2" +- hole saw and cut a disk out of plywood sand plywood flat on a flat surface then bevel the top of the center hole large enough that a largish dowel with a rounded end could be used to slide the "puck" back and forth on the surface without adding user induced "crooked loading" use disks cut out of fine wet or dry paper and work wet. But as mentioned the pumps can look pretty awful and still do the job needed just fine.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

to give you an idea on how robust most oil pumps are...... I have never worked on one that wasn't all scared up but I have never had an oil pump fail either ! scars and scratches don't seam to matter much at all but BINDING sure does ! ..... I've always used sandpaper on the scared up surfaces but not much ...just to get the sharp edges off and I've Never tried to re surface part of the oil pump because I don't see a point in doing so.... there must be some gap between the surfaces for lubrication the problem is if that gap is too big then the parts must be replaced because you won't be able to pump up pressure when the oil is hot. granted , resurfacing the surface may help in that case
.... I remember replacing a gear type oil pump in a VW engine ( old 36hp one) the old case was cracked of the oil pump so I needed a new one
after buying a brand new oil pump , I found that it was so tight I could not turn it with my hands ! pissed off and aggravated I put valve grinding compound in the oil pump and spun it with a drill .... that loosened it up ! quite a bit.... lubed it and assembled it and it ran like a top
for a short while , as the High performance cam I bought for it busted the crank ! and left me stranded in my VW van 70 miles in the middle of no where ! ..... that was a bummer !
.....
Bob....

 

[robinc]

Another method would be to a use 2" +- hole saw and cut a disk out of plywood sand plywood flat on a flat surface

Or if you want to ensure it's really flat without the sanding work grab a piece of UHMW plastic and machine it to size required.
This stuff works easy, just like hardwood.
Something like this:

http://www.rockler.com/uhmw-plastic-jig-stock

Edit: Should have mentioned that I wasn't suggesting to order that or spend that much, was for illustrative purposes only. If you have any surplus shops or specialty woodworking suppliers in your area they will have small pieces for a couple bucks.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Filing and sanding perfectly flat surfaces by hand, especially in that recessed area, is pretty near impossible. Rounding of outer edges, producing a convex surface, is very common. I can visualize the mount ears of the pump body cracking when the screws are tightened. If that's a concern, the high-volume pump body is much stronger...

http://www.xs650.com/threads/hp-oil-pump-from-mikes.40991/

 

[David Toll]

Thanks for the opinions fellows. I might attempt Gary's approach and mount a 50mm sanding disc faced with 600 grit onto a drill press and slowly address the surface of the case face. Have tried to locate a 60mm disc which would better suit the size of the face but have had no luck. I know I could cut a 60mm piece from plywood or UHMW but then I would have to face it with a velcro and find 60mm velcro adhesive pads to suit. I kinda rushed into this after coming back from O/S and now wish I had listened more carefully to TooMany's JB Weld suggestion. Oh well, fools rush in......
Have located a two inch sanding disc on a Chinese site which also provides a number of fine grit papers to suit. I know the quality will be suspect so I'll order two of them - the whole 60 piece set costs around 6 bucks. Will order this and then level the thing up on my College's drill press and give it a going over. I don't want too remove too much as I feel that too much play between the rotors and the case will cause a significant drop in pressure. I'll run a straight edge over the face with a light behind to attempt to pick up any irregularities. Have to wait a week for the bits too arrive so will have plenty of time to contemplate my stupidity.
As Gary says, I'll have to move the casing around due to the difference in diameter between the disc and the case face. Don't want to cause any new divots. Worse comes to worst, I'll fork out a hundred bills for a replacement case and consider it another in a long line of lessons learned. Unfortunately, I won't know until I put the thing back together, kick her over and see if there is oil coming from the feeder pipe on top. God, this motorcycle is teaching me patience! I'm just a slow learner but I'll get it right I swear!!
Cheers

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

David, don't use any form of sanding disc that has compliance, i.e. soft backing. It'll cut more at the outer radius, leave you with a convex surface. Use something solid, abrasive solidly glued to it.

As long as it's flat it won't affect the rotors' sidespacing. That's set by the pump body.

Ideally, this is a mill project. The cover would be clamped to the mill table, with the cover's gasket surface as the reference surface, mounted perfectly horizontal...

 

[Bob Kelly III]

then on the other hand you could just try it the way it is ...... it don't look THAT BAD ! LOL
if it were me , I'ed try it that way..... if upon assembly the pump binds that's another story ! chances are it will work that way for many years !
but it's impossible to tell from here how bad it is .... I'm guessing it just ain't that bad !
......
Bob........

 

[David Toll]

Thanks for the encouragement Bob but I am anally retentive when it comes to fixing my fuck ups and I'd rather put it back together with some confidence then reassemble and hope for the best. So this time I'll listen to TwoMany and buy a 60mm hole saw, cut a plywood disc, counter-sink a screw with a nut backing to enable me to fit it in the drill press and super glue some 600 grit to the flat surface. Figure I can just glue more paper discs to the surface as I need them though I'm hoping not to have to take too much off the case facing to ensure it's flat. I'm not too worried about the rotor's side spacing, it's the up and down play that concerns me. Anyway, in for a penny.....
Thanks gents.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Use silicone to hold the sand paper on or rubber contact cement , or even Walmarts' Shoe-Goo really good glue !
spread it thin and then PRESS it flat ! it'll stay on there ! put a brick on it and let it dry over night !
.....
I understand about rather to be sure about it ! oil isn't something you want to go bonkers in the engine !
.... look at it this way.... what have you got to loose ? it's either fix it or buy a new one so Fix it Dave ! YOU CAN DO IT!
I'm Rootin' fer ya !
....
Bob.......

 

[David Toll]

Cheers mate!

 

[David Toll]

Eventually, I followed Gary's advice to solve this issue. Took a 67mm hole saw and cut 3 discs. Inserted a cup head bolt countersunk into the centre of each disc and supa-glued 400 grit to one, 600 grit to the second and 1200 to the third (pic 1). Set everything up level on a drill press and lowered the mandrel onto the case surface. Unfortunately it "wobbled" as it rotated - must have been out of alignment somehow. I referred back to Gary's post and used the discs by hand. The 67mm diameter meant that the entire surface of the casing was addressed as I passed the paper over its face. Time consuming but I believe that I have achieved a flat surface again, no gaps under a straight edge and square edges on the perimeter of the case (pics 2, 3, 4). Checked the specs against 2Many's figures and it was within the limits. Reassembled it all and it spun freely (pic 5). As to whether or not it will pump sufficient oil under pressure, that will have to wait until reassembly of the engine. I was a little concerned about removing too much material from the surface of the case but I figure that the space where the rotors fit is determined by the height of the "lid" walls which I did not alter. May have dropped the overall pump 'height" by a couple of thou. but the tacho assembly slotted in just fine and spun when the gear was rotated .
Hopefully it's cured, only time will tell. I can guarantee that I now think twice before I start sanding or grinding mechanical components.
My thanks for all your advice and encouragement gentlemen.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Just as my dear old Mother used to tell me.." the impossible is only a little bit harder Son"
way to go David !!!!!
...Bob....

 

[motorbikerx]

yeah after seeing the broken broken bottom strainer and the craply blocked sidecase filter and pondering the crap thats been circulating through this engine here...its good to know the oil pumps can cop a flogging and pump metal.
On startup with rocker covers off there was plenty of oil splash! )

 

[David Toll]

Insightful as ever Bob and yes, mbx, I think this pump will still do the job.

 

[Michaelo]

Hi Dave, that was an interesting read, a milling machine would have saved you some grief. Good to see your enthusiasm for fixing your bike, be it a fuck up or not, you identified a problem and found it, good work mate! So what cracked the rotor? Did you find anything? Was it a part fault at all? I’d like to see the broken bit with a hi resolution picture, you can tell a lot from looking close to fractured steel / alloy faces

Cheers Mick

 

[David Toll]

Hello Mick
Sorry for the late reply but I spent New Year's on Moreton Island and just got off the ferry. I don't know what caused the rotor to crack. I have done a search of the possible reasons in the threads cited by 2Many in post 12 but I don't know if these relate to my circumstance. We never know how the PO has treated or mistreated the cycle, (unless, of course, you happen to be the original owner of, say, a new Trumpy 1200). I simply accept that it is broken and move on. Perhaps when I accrue a little of the knowledge held by contributors like 2Many I'll pursue the "why" more strenuously as I suspect that it is important. Bob K. suggests a broken gear tooth but I am hoping that Bob is wrong and everything in the transmission or starter gear is just fine - time will tell I suppose but splitting the cases is not on my current agenda which has already expanded from putting some air in the tyres to a top end rebuild. I will attempt to take a close up of the broken rotor tomorrow after I have gotten the sand out of my shorts and done something with my sunburn. Can't guarantee Hi-res though.
Hope the Triumph is still treating you as you deserve.
Ride safe.

 

[David Toll]

Here's some photos Mick. Unfortunately, I am no Steve McCurry but you might get the idea. Looks like a bloody big crack to me! I assume that it would take a fair bit of force to crack through that section of stainless, maybe Bob has a point and a piece of metal has become wedged in there. The original pump gear is in good nick - no broken or chipped teeth. Would have thought that an obstruction capable of applying enough pressure to crack the rotor would have caused damage to the other threaded or cogged parts. Only speculating now. As I say, time will tell.
Cheers

 

[Mailman]

David,
As I have just recently had my own oil pump woes. I hope that we have both put our troubles behind us. Best of luck to you my friend!
Bob

 

[David Toll]

I was hoping that you would attack the oil pump scenario before I started mine so that I could benefit from your painstaking attention to detail and excellent photography and take instruction from your tribulations, thus saving me time and money, not to mention robe tearing and the heaping of dirt on my already balding head. Unfortunately, impatience got the better of me. Fairly inconsiderate on your part Bob!! Perhaps we need to synchronize our work schedule more carefully!
Have a great '18.
Cheers

 

[650Skull]

the main thing is when it's assembled in the case that there is no binding or hard spots when turning the oil pump....it should be halfway tight
but turn freely all the way through 360 deg...... if there is a spot in it's rotation where it gets hard to turn then you'll need to lap it more.

There is written information about having the rotor sitting in the right configuration because it can bind. if it binds take it out and rotate and try again. sometimes it only fits one way and not the other three...................There has been a discussion about using griding past to laping an oil pump rotor and it is proven to cause the pump to be less efficient and it enlarges tolerances in the wrong places and can cause catastrophic failure of the pump and result in engine failure.