Should the Regulator be too Hot to Touch?

[freddy3]

I didn't read this topic, but please do yourself a favor and chuck that stone-age piece of shit solenoid voltage regulator. You can get a solid state regulator from an auto parts store that'll improve your bike's performance, charging rate and stability.

Thanks and, technically, you're absolutely right. But I've run the bike stock for the past 36+ years and plan to continue to do so until the [stock] parts are no longer available.

 

[sgallaty]

Thanks and, technically, you're absolutely right. But I've run the bike stock for the past 36+ years and plan to continue to do so until the [stock] parts are no longer available.

I feel that way about most things, but this one you can really get a nice improvement out of a solid state and modern VR (and rectifier)

also you really want to measure your dwell (the length of time the points are closed before opening) because if it's too short you'll get a crappy spark. points that are adjusted too wide open too early and produce a weak spark

 

[freddy3]

also you really want to measure your dwell (the length of time the points are closed before opening) because if it's too short you'll get a crappy spark. points that are adjusted too wide open too early and produce a weak spark

How do I do that (measure dwell)?

 

[xjwmx]

I didn't read this topic, but please do yourself a favor and chuck that stone-age piece of shit

You couldn't state one single valid reason why a solid state regulator is better than this one, to save your mother from hell.

 

[xjwmx]

How do I do that (measure dwell)?

He's a moron. He's talking about something completely different now, because he can sound enough like he knows something about it.

 

[sgallaty]

You couldn't state one single valid reason why a solid state regulator is better than this one, to save your mother from hell.

Linear response, and doesn't rely on resistance to control voltage drop, no moving parts.

Not sure if that would save my mother from hell though, depending on which hell you're talking about.

He's a moron. He's talking about something completely different now, because he can sound enough like he knows something about it.

As I understand it, dwell angle is the degree of rotation in which the points are closed before opening to create a spark. if your points are adjusted too far open, they are closed less during the full rotation of the cam. If they are adjusted badly enough, you won't have enough charging time on the coils to get a good spark. If they are not far enough, they can arc giving you unsteady timing and a weak spark as well.

I didn't know any of this stuff was controversial. I don't understand your upset. Did you take offense to my knocking the old electromagnetic voltage regulators?

If I'm wrong, feel free to offer up useful contradicting information. I can guarantee that this approach won't get you anywhere. Not sure what got your panties in a bunch, but your problems are yours alone.

 

[5twins]

To measure dwell, you need a dwell meter, not so easy to find today with all the electronic ignitions around. It's just about all I use to set points. As I said, it's the best way to set used ones and the most accurate way to set any points. The dwell angle is the amount of degrees in one engine revolution that the points "dwell" in the closed position. The coil builds spark energy during this time and releases it when the points open. Since the dwell meter is reading the time the points are closed, a larger reading indicates a smaller points gap and vice versa.

 

[freddy3]

5twins: As it happens, I've got an old tachdwell meter, but, as you can see, it's made for 6- or 8-cylinder engines, so I don't know if it'll work for a 2-cylinder XS2?

Also, I haven't used this thing in 25+ years and, to be honest, I don't remember how to use it?

 

[freddy3]

By the way, I also have an inductive timing light if that'll work better (for setting the timing). I know how to use a timing light on a car, but I don't know how to use it with the Yamaha?

 

[xjwmx]

Hook it to your car and shine it on your motorcycle?


Actually, I'd as soon have a mechanical regulator than a modern one really. It must have been designed to run a billion cycles. If it fritzed, you'd know it just from looking at it and you could probably fix it.

 

[5twins]

Yes, it's even harder to find a dwell meter for 2 cylinder applications. I'm sure they made them but I've never even seen one. To use a "car" type, you just need to do a little math. Mine has a 4 cyl setting which is what I use. For a single points set-up on a twin, the 4 cyl reading will be 1/2 of the actual dwell value. Since we have dual points, that halves the reading again. The dwell value for our 650s is 93° +/- 5°, or 88°-98°. That means you want 22-24.5 on the 4 cyl. scale. With your meter, that would be 11-12.25 on the 8 cyl. scale.

I don't know if your meter will read accurately enough but you can try it. It should at least give you a ball park reading and show if you're way off with your gap. To hook it up, simply clip the positive lead to the points wire on the set you're checking and the negative to ground. You can see the hook-ups in my pic. Start the engine and check at idle.

 

[5twins]

You use the timing light on your bike in the same manner as on your car but with one minor difference. On a car, you clip the pick-up to a certain plug wire and leave it there. On a bike with dual points, you need to take readings off both plug wires. Clipping the pick-up to the left plug wire will show you left cylinder timing, move it to the right plug wire to read it's timing. You can power the light from the bike's battery or a separate different battery, your choice.

 

[freddy3]

5twins: Seems simple enough. If I get out of work early enough, I'll take a trip over to the bike and give it a try tonight. If the reading is far off, is it the point gap (the space between the contacts of each set of points) I need to adjust or the timing (rotating the points plate)?

 

[freddy3]

You use the timing light on your bike in the same manner as on your car but with one minor difference. On a car, you clip the pick-up to a certain plug wire and leave it there. On a bike with dual points, you need to take readings off both plug wires. Clipping the pick-up to the left plug wire will show you left cylinder timing, move it to the right plug wire to read it's timing. You can power the light from the bike's battery or a separate different battery, your choice.

So, instead of following the manual to set the timing statically, I can use the timing light to adjust the timing with the engine idling (rotating the points plate until the indicator on the rotor appears between the two "F" lines on the stator)?

 

[5twins]

Exactly, it also allows you to rev the motor and check the full advance setting. As I said, that's the important one. You don't want to be running these over-advanced.

If the dwell meter reading is off, that is the points gap. The dwell meter is only for checking points gap, not timing. Using a dwell meter and a timing light, it's possible to get your timing and points gaps dead nuts. It's also easier to match them cylinder to cylinder, which is what you're striving for. You want the gaps the same on each set of points and the timing the same on each cylinder.

I dicked around with points for the first few years I had my 650. I'm so glad that's all behind me and I installed a Pamco, lol.

 

[sgallaty]

another thing I just remembered -

There are two other very important considerations for points.

First they need to be clean, no debris and they need to be flat (not rounded), or pitted or burnt and you need to have a good working condenser.

The condenser is what prevents arcing when the contacts separate. If your contacts arc, they'll pit but also the arc screws up your plug arc because the field collapse isn't quick enough.

the concept of a spark plug coil is that the primary windings generate a magnetic field and the secondary windings are an incomplete circuit. when the field collapses on the primary windings (the points open), the energy of the field collapse (forgot what this is called), causes a generation of sufficient voltage on the secondary to jump the spark plug gap.

the 'dwell' of the points charges the primary. the dwell being short will make a funny situation where the bike works great at idle but dies at high speed - because you aren't getting enough charge time

When you set the 'gap' on your points, you're also setting the dwell, but you have to really test it to know. with the engine not running you can test dwell by finding the point of rotation where the points close and open. That's your static dwell, I believe it's called. I am not too sure about that. Also test the points for conductivity if you have any doubts.

In some cases it's not enough to know what works, but becomes important to know how it works if you want to fix it, or why it works if you want to improve it.

Also, another thing - my grandad always told me that whenever one person has the balls to say something to your face, 9 other people are thinking it. Sorry if I come across as a know it all. I'm not but I do try to help with understanding when I think I have something to contribute.

I've been building engines since I was 15 years old. I tore down my first top end (on a honda s-90) to fix the overhead cam chain and tensioner and my life has never been the same since. I'm 47 now, so that's about 32 years of busting knuckles.

 

[freddy3]

sgallaty: Thanks for the very informative post. You've answered a number of questions and I appreciate the simple, thoughtful explanations. I honestly don't get all the electrical/mathematical points, but I think I'll be able to work my way through the dwell meter and timing light.

As I mentioned a few posts back, after installing new (properly gapped) B8ES plugs and tweaking the timing (statically, as best I could), the only remaining problem is a slightly rough idle (though the bike no longer stalls at lights, which was the original problem). Otherwise, when I took it out for a three hour drive this past weekend (average speed: 60 mph), it started (via the electric starter) within a second(!) and ran like a dream. Also, when I inspected them after the drive, the plugs looked NORMAL.

If, between the dwell meter and inductive timing light, I can smooth out the idle (without causing any other issues), I'll be one happy (two-wheeled) camper!

 

[sgallaty]

sgallaty: Thanks for the very informative post. You've answered a number of questions and I appreciate the simple, thoughtful explanations. I honestly don't get all the electrical/mathematical points, but I think I'll be able to work my way through the dwell meter and timing light.

As I mentioned a few posts back, after installing new (properly gapped) B8ES plugs and tweaking the timing (statically, as best I could), the only remaining problem is a slightly rough idle (though the bike no longer stalls at lights, which was the original problem). Otherwise, when I took it out for a three hour drive this past weekend (average speed: 60 mph), it started (via the electric starter) within a second(!) and ran like a dream. Also, when I inspected them after the drive, the plugs looked NORMAL.

If, between the dwell meter and inductive timing light, I can smooth out the idle (without causing any other issues), I'll be one happy (two-wheeled) camper!

That makes me smile.

Like the old joke -

Man goes to the mechanic and says "My bike runs great when I'm going fast, but it idles rough. What should I do?"
Mechanic says "Keep moving"

 

[5twins]

I enjoy both your posts which is more than I can say about some of the others on the board here, lol. They're well written and informative.

Freddy, if you do get the timing all squared away and the bike is still running a bit rough, it may be time to look into the carbs. That's a whole 'nother different can of worms, lol.

 

[freddy3]

That makes me smile.
Like the old joke -
Man goes to the mechanic and says "My bike runs great when I'm going fast, but it idles rough. What should I do?"
Mechanic says "Keep moving"

There's alot of truth in that...

I enjoy both your posts which is more than I can say about some of the others on the board here, lol. They're well written and informative.

Yeah, some of the posts seem a bit personal in nature. But, still, I've gotten alot of help from everyone, so I guess it all balances out.

Freddy, if you do get the timing all squared away and the bike is still running a bit rough, it may be time to look into the carbs. That's a whole 'nother different can of worms, lol.

That's not an issue. I rebuilt both carbs last year.