Starter help??!!

[BBQRider]

So I've got my bike back together (83 xs650) and she's running great. The only problem is I have to kick start her. The start button is not working for some reason. I've been searching threads and trying different things. Just fyi, she started fine prior to disassembly. I've jumped the starter solenoid like I saw on one post and the starter seem s to work fine. I did remove the cable at the clutch (sensor)and thought I had read that you do not need to do anything other than unplug it inside the headlight cover. Is this true? I'm getting power at the ignition fuse. I've looked for broken or disconnected wires but haven't found any. Just not sure what direction to go next? Help??

 

[richardthemotorcycle1]

Did you check fuse box, I had a bad connection and my starter button won,t work, also check those fuses, make sure there good and are making a good connection, also won't hurt to check all those connection in head light too.

 

[angus67]

If your handle bars are coated or painted, that button dont work. The system grounds thru the bars. Same as the horn

 

[richardthemotorcycle1]

It could be in the switch itself, I had to replace my button.

 

[BBQRider]

Ok, so after not sleeping much last night I went back out this morning and narrowed it down to the small power wire (r/w) on the solenoid. In reading other posts this comes from the key? Is there any safety's in between or should this be a straight shot? Just fyi, I jumped this wire, used the start button, ran fine and used the run/off switch to cut off. All work fine. Thanks again for any and all help!

 

[5twins]

That R/W comes from the starter safety relay. That's the tin box under the solenoid. It's supposed to cut power on that R/W wire but only after the motor is running. There's another R/W wire feeding power into the relay. Now, it's possible the relay is bad but it's also possible you're not getting any power in on that other R/W. If that's the case, I would find the connections from that clutch safety switch you removed and jumper them together.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Lots of interlocks on the 1983 year.
Not finding 12 volts at the red/white wire at the starter relay (solenoid): That power comes from the Starter Lockout Relay (Starter Circuit Cutoff Relay) . To make that relay operate either the bike must be in neutral OR the sidestand
switch is closed (sidestand is up) and the clutch switch must be closed (clutch pulled).

5twins is correct concerning the clutch switch. If you just unplugged the 2 wire cable going to the clutch switch, then the Starter Lockout Relay cannot operate except it can operate if the neutral switch is closed. You should connect the 2 wires that used to go to the clutch switch.

 

[BBQRider]

Ok 5twins. Thanks for the help. I will start tracing that in the next couple days and see what turns up. I'll keep you posted.
Funny thing about that clutch sensor wire though. When I bought the bike a few months ago the sensor cable was broke and basically just hanging there. The bike started and ran fine but the neutral light always stayed on. I wonder if the two issues are connected somehow?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Ok 5twins. Thanks for the help. I will start tracing that in the next couple days and see what turns up. I'll keep you posted.
Funny thing about that clutch sensor wire though. When I bought the bike a few months ago the sensor cable was broke and basically just hanging there. The bike started and ran fine but the neutral light always stayed on. I wonder if the two issues are connected somehow?

No need to wonder anymore..........................yes indeed the two issues are very much related. The PO had a problem when the clutch cable/switch stopped working. He found he could not start the engine when the tranny was selected in gear. However he could start the engine if neutral was selected. So he cleverly put a permanent ground on the
neural switch and could then start the engine in any gear and in neutral, but the neutral light is always on.

Even if you jumper the clutch switch wires, you still need a ground that comes from the sidestand switch.

 

[BBQRider]

Thanks Retiredgentleman. I will definitely connect the clutch sensor wires just to rule that out. Just so I can get my terminology correct is the starter lockout relay sometimes called a safety relay or is that just a generic term used for all relays?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Thanks Retiredgentleman. I will definitely connect the clutch sensor wires just to rule that out. Just so I can get my terminology correct is the starter lockout relay sometimes called a safety relay or is that just a generic term used for all relays?

No, the Starter Lockout Relay and the Safety Relay are two different relays. There is only one safety relay on these bikes. The SLR is an interlock relay. Your bike has a lot of interlocks. You should have a Haynes manual, as it has wiring diagrams and explanations of the various interlocks.

 

[5twins]

Yes, it is sometimes called the safety relay. On your model, the unit has two relays in it, one for the starter and one for the headlight (auto-on when the motor starts).

 

[BBQRider]

That is kinda what I suspected about the neutral light. Do you think once I jump the clutch sensor and find where he grounded it that the light will work properly when it is actually in neutral?

 

[retiredgentleman]

That is kinda what I suspected about the neutral light. Do you think once I jump the clutch sensor and find where he grounded it that the light will work properly when it is actually in neutral?

Yes, the clutch light should start operating normally if you find and remove the ground that the PO placed. There is a light blue coloured wire that runs from the neutral switch to the Starter Lockout Relay. Somewhere along that wire he has placed a ground or he has shorted out the neutral switch itself.

 

[5twins]

If you look at the top of the neutral switch on the crankcase, where the light blue wire connects, you'll see the connection stud is insulated from the rest of the bolt with a plastic insert. He may have bridged it to ground right there. That would be about the easiest way.

 

[BBQRider]

Ok so let me throw this out there. When I switch the key on I can hear the click inside the starter cut-off/headlight relay. When I raise the side stand should I also hear a click inside the side stand relay? This seems like a real easy delete. Could this be the culprit? Sorry for all the basic questions but Im just trying to get a game plan together so I don't spend another night in my garage starring at my bike and scratching my head only to get frustrated. Thanks for your help and time. It really is helping this clueless guy understand the manual a lot better. I will let you know what I narrow it down to, or who knows maybe I can actually get it! Hopefully I can get back to it by tomorrow. Free time is at a premium if you know what I mean.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Ok so let me throw this out there. When I switch the key on I can hear the click inside the starter cut-off/headlight relay. When I raise the side stand should I also hear a click inside the side stand relay? This seems like a real easy delete. Could this be the culprit? Sorry for all the basic questions but Im just trying to get a game plan together so I don't spend another night in my garage starring at my bike and scratching my head only to get frustrated. Thanks for your help and time. It really is helping this clueless guy understand the manual a lot better. I will let you know what I narrow it down to, or who knows maybe I can actually get it! Hopefully I can get back to it by tomorrow. Free time is at a premium if you know what I mean.

When the the key is switched on (and Kill switch is ON), its not the Starter Cut-off/Headlight Relay (Safety Relay) you hear. You are hearing the Starter Lockout Relay operate. The SLR operates because there is a ground coming from the neutral switch.

The Sidestand Relay also operates when the key is switched on, and again its due to a ground coming from the neutral switch. Raising the sidestand does not operate the Sidestand Relay because its already energized from the clutch switch.

 

[BBQRider]

Ok so I got the elec start working. Not sure but it seemed to have been a bad relay on the starter lockout? I will say I'm a bit confused though because my Haynes manual I believe has the starter lockout relay and the starter cut-off/headlight relay mixed up? Can someone help verify this? The other diagrams seem to contradict the drawing here. This has made it a little difficult when trying to match the book to everyone's advice. I'm hoping this sketch is backwards because it would make a lot more sense to me.

 

[sweet_ride_55]

View attachment 87613 Ok so I got the elec start working. Not sure but it seemed to have been a bad relay on the starter lockout? I will say I'm a bit confused though because my Haynes manual I believe has the starter lockout relay and the starter cut-off/headlight relay mixed up? Can someone help verify this? The other diagrams seem to contradict the drawing here. This has made it a little difficult when trying to match the book to everyone's advice. I'm hoping this sketch is backwards because it would make a lot more sense to me.

BBQRider, After troubleshooting my '83 Heritage Special, I found the Haynes manual figure 30 to be reverse of the A and B relays as indicated.
I bypassed the clutch switch by connecting the wires going to the clutch switch together. I did the same to the wires going to the side stand switch
The electric start now works...

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yes, the Haynes manual has some mistakes. Fig. 7.32 has the position of the 2 relays reversed. Also Fig. 7.24 on page 159 has some wiring errors. The 2 pictures I'm posting show the wrong wiring and the correct wiring. When books are printed sometimes humans make errors.