TX650 pops out of gear

[rustyrescue]

I took my "new" TX650 for a first proper ride today and at have an issue with it popping out of gear sometimes. It seems to happen in 1st and 2nd, maybe 3rd and up but not certain yet.
It is a bit noisy on over run but old bikes often are.
Any ideas? I hope it is something I can do without major surgery, perhaps springs?
It is not falling into neutral proper as the light does not come on, it is a "false neutral",

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

You'll want to remove the right clutch cover, maybe even the clutch, and observe the operation of your shifting components. Check out the video in post #1 of this thread.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/finding-neutral-while-stopped-and-in-gear.47568/

If that all checks ok, you may be looking at getting into the transmission...

 

[Jim]

Might also want to check the shift drum detent pin and spring. Sounds like the spring could be broke or missing or a seized pin.

 

[rustyrescue]

Thank you, I notice the gear lever has a fair bit of free play in and out of the left casing though not sure if this could affect it...is it shimmed with washers?
The spring and detent pin I have just checked. Spring good, pin perhaps had a little sticky stuff on it but it was cold and still came out easily with a small magnet on a stick so was by no means stuck. I gave it a clean anyway and popped it back in.
I see the shift is adjusted to the star wheel......if this is incorrect could it result in gears finding false neutral due to not engaging correctly?
I recently had reason to take a cover of another bike and did so with it on sidestand so as not to drain what was fresh oil in it........will I get away with the same approach on the TX?

 

[5twins]

No, you'd have to lean it over much more than just on the side stand. You'd have to lay it over practically on it's side. If the oil is fresh, you could just drain it into a clean container and put it back in.

 

[Jim]

Leaving the oil in and leaning the bike is probably not a good idea in this instance. If you wind up needing to pull the shift lever, you'll have no choice but to drain the oil. Easier to just get out of the way now.

 

[rustyrescue]

thanks, will drain it, I am hopeful a spring has broken or fallen off!...........

 

[5twins]

There shouldn't be much in-out slop or "play" on the shift lever shaft. It should be held in place so it can't move in and out by a snap ring on the shaft, on the left end where it comes out of the case.

 

[rustyrescue]

any idea how much in and out on the lever? looking at old posts on here mine is not so bad! I will measure it later.

I double checked the detent plunger, by holding it down with my finger on the spring and not the threaded bolt/cap I can feel it move up and down as I wiggle the gear lever so it seems fine.

I took it for another 10 mile gentle run today and it still pops out of gear, but not always.

It always finds its gear initially but then sometimes loses the gear to a false neutral a short while later as some revs are put on or as I work back down the box. It seems to lose it when under power or on over run mostly. If just pottering without working the cogs if you know what I mean it usually stays in. If it stays in gear its fine...can load it up and ride around no issue until maybe after another up or down change.

It seems to happen going both up or down the box but I don't think in 5th and maybe not 4th though at the higher speeds it is harder to mess safely with a bike that may lose drive!

I notice sometimes the gear change does not have that reassuring clunk feel against my boot as i do it but have not established if that warns me it has not properly engaged.

I am hoping when I get time to strip the casing off it turns out to be a selector issue that can be got at.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...any idea how much in and out on the lever?

Have a look at post #10 in Signal's shifting thread.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/gear-selector-trouble.51071/#post-534237

 

[rustyrescue]

thanks TwoManyXS1Bs. I have looked at mine and it has about 1mm free play so could be improved...though I would suspect it is not the cause of it losing gear.
I am awaiting the delivery of some springs before I dismantly in the hope (ever hopeful!) that I pull the casing and find a pesky broken or stretched spring.
I will pull the clutch and check the adjustment, consider shimming the end float on shaft and check the two springs.
Beyond that it gets scary.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Popping out of a single particular gear is a good indication of problems with that gear.

Popping out of every gear, randomly, is a good indication of shiftdrum wandering, like from a bad starwheel stopper, or its spring.

Feel better now?

 

[rustyrescue]

Ta......doing your best to make me feel good. I do agree with your thoughts but only when I get inside will I know more. both springs new found on ebay for £2 so bought them so I have them at the ready when they arrive. I should probably get a gasket but I do not see any sealer used on it so hopeful it comes off. I will do this job when my mainstand bolts arrive from USA too.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

That's a nice looking TX.
Those carbs working well for you?

 

[rustyrescue]

That's a nice looking TX.
Those carbs working well for you?

Thanks, I tend to get bikes somebody else spent the money on and then fettle them to get them spot on. The carbs in my initial use seem good. It starts easy on kick or electric motor, I prefer kick. It idles on choke happily for a short warm up and seems to pull very well indeed. I think they are a little rich perhaps but need to run it more. It also pops/backfires a little on over run or changing down the gears sometimes but only occasionally.
It had these XS performance carbs I think sourced from Heiden Tuning in Netherlands? I am not sure yet what they are but they have XS performance etched on them.
Also it has an XS charge kit from USA and boyer electronic ignition.
Seeing as the casings are coming off they may as well be polished too ;0)

 

[gggGary]

Looks like a fine TX!

 

[rustyrescue]

thanks gggGary..................she lived in missouri until more recent years judging by the safety test stickers on the frame.

 

[rustyrescue]

I got time today to drain oil and take the right hand cover off. The top little spring on the selector was missing. I have found the spring on the bottom of the casing but cant find the "hook" that broke off. It is not hanging where it should be so can only be somewhere lying around which is a little worrying if I cant find it.

 

[Jim]

so can only be somewhere lying around which is a little worrying if I cant find it.

Check the magnets on the drain plugs... sump screen magnets?

 

[MaxPete]

No, you'd have to lean it over much more than just on the side stand. You'd have to lay it over practically on it's side. If the oil is fresh, you could just drain it into a clean container and put it back in.

Agreed - if you are unsure about the oil and its service history, you are best to just change it. XS650's will live a long time - but dirty oil hurts them quickly.

Having said that - leaning the bike over is a great way to service the clutch side of the engine. I use a car jackstand with an old towel wadded up on top of the stand-pad. Place the stand under one of the exhaust header studs on the LEFT hand side of the head and gently lay the bike down onto it. The bike will be at an ideal height and angle for you to remove the RH engine case cover while sitting on a low stool or even on your bum on the floor. Be sure to keep track of the many (I think either nine or 11) socket head (i.e. Allen) cap screws and note which ones have the little copper crush washers on them. If you work carefully, you can often re-use the gasket on the RH engine case-cover.

If you do need to remove the clutch - the best way is to use an impact driver on the six JIS clutch screws. JIS means Japan Industrial Standard and while they may look like a Phillips screw, they are not - and the geometry is just different enough that a Phillips driver can strip a JIS screw head.

JIS drivers are readily available on the web at low cost - and the best brand is Vessel, most of which come with a fetching light green-blue handle. Here is a photo of a complete set - and they are well worth the price if you work on ANYthing built in Japan.

Another excellent (and less expensive source of JIS drivers is GoFastInnovations of London, Ontario Canada. I do not have any connection with these folks, but their products are great and they ship fast. Here is a linky: https://www.gofastinnovations.com/

The XS650 clutch screws will be pretty tight and so I recommend using an impact driver to get them off quickly and without damage. The one you need to do the clutch is the Vessel IMPACTA #3 model which is on the far right in the photo above (the one with the silver handle). To use any impact driver properly:

1. Put the driver bit into the screw head and lean on it to push it firmly into the screw;
2. Rotate the driver in the "loosening" direction - CCW - to preload it;
3. Hit the butt-end of the driver a good smart blow with a steel hammer.

There is no-need to go neanderthal with the hammer or use a big sledge - just one good swat with a carpenter's hammer should do it. In my experience, this will loosen the clutch screws instantly and without damage.

In fact, I found that three of the six screws on my 1981 XS650SH were badly damaged when I got in there - and they actually looked much better AFTER I used the Vessel Impacta #3 driver on them.

Pete