Vacuum bleeder worth having?

[TeeCat]

twins, Gordon... can't say enough how the help and votes of confidence are giving me such a great deal of incentive to do this right.

Now that you have mentioned paint, I suppose that if I decided to freshen the paint or even change the color, now would be the time to do it, while all is just mocked up and still dry. Even if I encounter a small delay such as a little cosmetic matter, it's a matter of an hour or so, and a few dollars, compared to the time and effort I have already invested in addressing a horrifically neglected front brake. Will decide very soon...

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Well, after considering freshening the caliper body with gold ceramic caliper paint to echo the gold on my tank graphics, I decided to just do black, as in stock. May as well do it now, before it all goes together. Everything is all masked and prepped (caliper back off the bike now), but it's raining and way too humid. Will try again tomorrow.

Also, HVC Cycle in Nebraska sells quite a few bits for our bikes, and has a wealth of information as well. This is where I found the caliper article that included twins' and Gordon's tips. They also sell early calipers now. They're a bit pricey, I suppose, but hopefully I won't be needing a new one after having rebuilt and freshened my original one.

TC

 

[Gordon]

Naw, you should be all set for a long time. Remember, brake fluid is hydroscopic, it absorb's water. That is what causes all the problems. Brake fluid change's could be done every other spring, or once a year if stored outside under a tarp. It's cheap and easy to do, and, if done often enough, will keep the caliper's and hose's in great shape.
Wow.$150 for your type, thats up there.

 

[TeeCat]

Well, as I write this, the freshly painted (black) caliper is hanging in the shop awaiting installation. Tonight, I'll button everything up, and then try to fill/bleed it tomorrow. Sure hope all goes well and the brake works properly!

There's one little tiny spot on the front that I boogered a little... of course I had to accidentally touch it while it was tacky. Might not even be worth bothering to fix, though... will see. But it sure does look nice and clean. Should be all worth it.

TC

 

[pcoumbe]

If you're bleeding brakes for a living and volume through your shop puts food on the table then maybe you need one, but if you're messing with one bike and want to get it right the first time and on a budget, listen to retiredgentleman, he's offering good advice for free. It will sit on the shelf gathering dust after you use it.

 

[TeeCat]

If you're bleeding brakes for a living and volume through your shop puts food on the table then maybe you need one, but if you're messing with one bike and want to get it right the first time and on a budget, listen to retiredgentleman, he's offering good advice for free. It will sit on the shelf gathering dust after you use it.

RG's guidance has never failed me yet! In this instance, however, I think I may have benefited from spending a few bucks on this... two people in my office have asked to borrow it, and one has said he'll take it off my hands if I find I don't need it with regularity.

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Big problems, guys.

I have been having a hell of a time bleeding this. I thought it was just going to take a long time, but then I noticed some brake fluid just below the back of my front fender. I have things covered up with towels as best I can. But I took a finger and felt around the banjo at the M/C, as well as the joint between the upper and lower hoses that are encased in a rubber grommet (factory). Both were wet.

I have the banjo torqued to 15 ft pounds per RG's recommendation. I have not yet gone further than that. I tightened the other joint a bit more, but I have to go by feel, ass it's a flare fitting and I don't want to crush it. The hoses are new, btw.

All stop... full stop. What should I do? I'm really concerned about wrecking my paint and/or really messing this up, but I'm in deep water already.

Thoughts/recommendations, please. If anyone near Ellicott City, MD sees this, I am not proud and will buy the beer. Need some help on this.

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Update:

I'm not convinced that the banjo at the M/C is leaking. The M/C had been just tossing a few bubbles over the rim during bleeding, and a bit of fluid may have just collected on the top of where the banjo threads into... I'm not sure yet.

But the fitting between the brand new upper and lower hoses seems to be weeping. I have tightened it a bit more and am checking it as I bleed it. I have to go get another quart of fluid. I'm not at all comfortable with this.

All fittings save the banjo have pipe compound, btw. Can't see how I can possibly have leakage.

 

[TeeCat]

Update:

Well, I gradually tightened the upper-to-lower hose fitting, several times (really concerned about cranking on it too hard), dried it off as best I could, and have been watching it closely (as well as the banjo fitting) as I continued bleeding the system. At this time, I don't see (and I don't think I feel by looking for dampness on fingers) any leakage. I don't think the banjo was actually leaking, as it seems bone dry to the touch after every bleed sequence. Also, I noticed that it became progressively more difficult for me to push fluid through to the container, and the lever was slowly, but discernibly, building pressure. At the moment, I have a nearly full reservoir, and a fairly firm lever with about 3/4 to 1 inch (at the ball end). It actually feels pretty decent, at least at the moment.

I capped the reservoir and closed the bleed valve, but just left everything there, ready to try to get some more air out tomorrow, as I'm beat and have to throw something on the grill. So, is it a good idea to just let the system sit closed up and check it for feel in the morning? I'm looking to maintain at least this lever feel, be assured that I have stopped the leak(s), and feel confident that I'm finished bleeding it. Even with all the reading materials and how-to's, it's hard for me to tell "when is when", you know?

TC

 

[Gordon]

Enjoy that T-Bone, and yes, tomorrow is another day. If the lever feels good tomorrow, you should be all set. I suggest you put down some newspaper, under the master, the connection for the 2 hoses on the tripple tree, and the caliper. One or 2 drop's could just be some residual fluid you missed, but small puddles indicate a leak. You do have the copper washers on the banjo fittings, right? One on each side of the fitting. Like I stated earlier this week, the banjo's will take quite a bit of torque, so don't be too afraid of breaking them. You could use a 'feel', as they crush the copper washer's. And if the washer's seem too hard, you can 'anneal' them by heating them up cherry red with a propane torch, and letting them 'cool off' naturally. Annealing takes the hardness out of them, but won't destroy them at all, unless you melt them into little puddles.
BTW, keep a spray bottle of water close by, and spray it on any area that get's splashed with the brake fluid. It will dilute it enough to stop it from eating your paint. Some paper towels, too.

 

[TeeCat]

Thanks for responding, Gordon. I didn't expect that leak... freaked me out a bit!

I have clean white shop towels under the banjo and the lower triple tree junction. And I have a washer on either side of the banjo, torqued to RG's recommendation. After supper, I went out there to check it again. The banjo and TT joint seemed dry (though that glossy brake fluid residue is always hard to get rid of), and the lever still felt firm. In fact, it's fair to say that the lever feels much better now that it ever did, as I recall. I have the set screw adjusted to almost no play, and it seems quite firm to a moderate squeeze... not at all what I'd call spongy.

I'll check it again in the morning. The M/C cap is tight, and the fluid is up to the bottom of the threads on the M/C reservoir. The bleed valve is tight too. All the bleed equipment is still hooked up, so I don't know yet how the bike rolls or whether the pads are retracting properly; hope they are! I guess that, if all feels the same tomorrow, I'll be "done" bleeding it. Agreed?

It poured tonight, so I'll need a dry day to test it.

Man, brakes give me the willies! So much can go wrong! Much respect for guys who do this all the time!

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Update - morning after:

I think I may be done. After sitting overnight, there are no obvious signs of leaking. All that I can detect by feel is a bit of residue from the fluid that's not easily removed, especially from rubber grommets (the line bracket on the lower tree). Banjo fitting appears/feels dry. The lever "feel" is what I'd call firm - not spongy by any reasonable definition, and notably better than it was before the refresh. Travel seems not to have changed since quitting time yesterday.

Yesterday, I had filled the M/C to the bottom of the cap threads, as there appear to be no other fill level indicators on the M/C, and I don't want spills/seepage.

It's soggy out, so I can't test, but I may start to put tools away and clean up, and check to see if the bike rolls, pads retract, etc. Fingers crossed.

TC

 

[5twins]

Even on MCs with "full" lines, you usually can't fill them to that mark. When you add the rubber bellow or diaphragm that fits under the cap, it raises the fluid level. You may have to experiment a little with the cap off level to get it showing full when the cap is on.

 

[TeeCat]

Oh, twins... my M/C is an early type with no glass, though.

 

[Gordon]

TeeCat, As long as the fluids above the bottom of the reservior, it's ok. Brake fluid does not evaporate, and the only way fluid would not be there is a leak. And when the pads start to wear, the fluid take's up the space, so a little fluid drop is normal after some usage. As Twins said, just leave enough room for the cap seal.

 

[TeeCat]

Okay, that's what I have done, guys... thanks. The weather's too disgusting to test now... hopefully in the next day or two. However, just rolling the bike back and forth in the shop, the "groan" that used to frequently come likely from one of the pads not retracting as I would roll the bike seems to be gone. Also, the brake does stop and hold the bike in the shop, so I know the pads are compressing the rotor, and retracting. Again, testing will be forthcoming as the weather improves, and I'll watch for lever feel, seepage, etc., though I'm hoping I have stopped the leak... seemed to be the upper-to-lower hose fitting.

Again - and I can't say this enough - so much thanks to those who assisted me on this... I did not find it easy. In case anyone is interested in seeing Mike's M/C and upper/lower hoses applied, here are some snaps, as well as a few of the rebuilt/repainted caliper.

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Well, I had offered preliminary thanks, but now I think it's safe to offer definitive thanks to all of those who have helped me to achieve pleasing results with my front brake restoration/replacement/service. I had a chance to take the bike out this afternoon for a short local romp. As far as I can tell, the "groan" is gone (likely from one piston not retracting fully), and I have essentially a two-finger operation front brake that seems to be smooth and linear. I didn't do any panic stops, but I would not want to challenge that brake to lock the front wheel. And... no sign of leaks, anywhere.

I didn't find this job easy at all - I think I had every problem one could have - but thanks to you guys, I now have a safely serviced and cosmetically pleasing front brake. Thanks to you all, especially those of you who basically walked me through it and endured my frustration and dumb questions.

Just topped off the oil (about 4 ounces... I watch the level closely because of that dribble), and might take her to work again tomorrow if I'm not too tired.

Thanks again, guys!

TC

 

[XSLeo]

I didn't help on this project, but I would like to congradulate everyone who did. It looks good. And it sounds like it works good.
What you experienced is about what can be expected on an almost 40 year old brake system that never got proper maintainance.
TeeCat you did well. Now just keep it maintained and you will never have to go through it again. Well, until the next XS650.
Leo

 

[TeeCat]

Hi, Leo -

Actually, you did help... I considered a lot of what you had said when I was considering which way to go on the brake refresh, such as whether to rebuild, replace, etc. But I had the bike at work Friday, and the brake feels really good for 40 year-old technology. Normal operation is basically two-finger. And no more groaning from improperly retracting pistons. So, thanks for your input!

TC