XS 650 Vs Honda CB 750

[grizld1]

Because the CB750 was an affordable mass market machine, it was a game changer in a way the Mammoth couldn't be. (Gotta remember, the Mammoth was selling for $4,000 at a time when a new compact car could be had for less than half that price.) Jeez, Gary, that CW article really misses the point, doesn't it? The AMA didn't drop the 30.5 c.i. OHV/45 c.i. SV rule because of a new crop of imported 750s; the rules were changed because Harley had finished development on the XR, and Harley made the rules!

Another thing--the CB750 didn't change the game on raw power alone, and it certainly wasn't the best handling bike on the road. But the whole package of controllable handling, decent (for the period) braking, reliability, affordability, and performance set the bar very high indeed. Nothing else came close in 1969. And the smoothness of the 4 cylinder engine closed a lot of sales.

 

[Yamaha77]

Because the CB750 was an affordable mass market machine, it was a game changer in a way the Mammoth couldn't be. Jeez, Gary, that CW article really misses the point, doesn't it? The AMA didn't drop the 30.5 c.i. OHV/45 c.i. SV rule because of a new crop of imported 750s; the rules were changed because Harley had finished development on the XR, and Harley made the rules!

I didnt pay any mind at all to those articles. Clearly biased and the consensus is, the 750 changed the game. For anyone to argue against that is like saying the sky is red.

 

[gggGary]

Certainly for boatload after boatload of UJM's LOL. Much of the Japanese advantage was fueled by favorable currency exchange rates and Japanese manufacture's subcontracting to reduce cost and hide environmental messes. Read up on MacArthur and Deming for some background perspective on the Japanese "invasion".

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Great article on the Mammoth. Well we will have to agree to disagree on the superbike status. The Z1 broke so many records that stood for many years compared to the 750. Either way they are both great bikes to own and ride...

Well, this is only how I saw things down here back then. That was a struggle with choice of wording. I'm looking at this from the consumer observer perspective, not the racetrack.

The Mammoth was expensive, low production, not mainstream. I liken it to the first raindrops before the hurricane hits. No real impact, but a warning sign of intense things to come.

The CB750 ushered in mainstream 4-cylinder performance, but in a Honda "nicest folks" kinda way. I recall most folks considered it as a better cross-country and highway cruiser, suitable for floorboards, fairings, and saddlebags. With the exception of the "F", it pretty much remained the same thru 1978. The Goldwing was also targeted to the cross-county crowd. The winds are picking up.

The H's were terrors, owned by niche riders, cultivating aggressive street competition. Getting some pretty stiff breezes.

Then came the Z's, and things got craaaa-Z.
Using consumer interpretation and response as the yardstick, I'd agree and say this was when "Superbike" started...

 

[Yamaha77]

Certainly for boatload after boatload of UJM's LOL. Much of the Japanese advantage was fueled by favorable currency exchange rates and Japanese manufacture's subcontracting to reduce cost and hide environmental messes. Read up on MacArthur and Deming for some background perspective on the Japanese "invasion".

So I have four bikes
1972 Honda CB 350F
1973 Honda Cb 500F
1977 Yamaha XS650
and just this past weekend I bought a PRISTINE 1973 Honda CB 750, I mean not ONE spot of rust on it.

The 750 is amazing. BUT I cant figure out for the life of me, which is faster/stronger: the XS650 or the 750. Hmmm

Pics of both hereView attachment 88341 View attachment 88342

and I quote:
"Though their presence in the industry in recent decades has been minimal, UJMs left a lasting mark on the US industry. In a time when the American motorcycle market was limited to American cruisers and unreliable European sport bikes, the CB750 and its competitors fostered an interest in motorcycling, and made Japanese manufacturers — and motorcycling — thrive then and now."

 

[grizld1]

2Many, I think you've pretty much summed up the evolutionary process. The H bikes were indeed terrors, we used to call 'em "Tojo's Revenge" because they made so many corpses. I got an invite to a pre-release test ride on the H1--amazing power, a frame with all the rigidity of half-cooked spaghetti, and brakes that were there, but just barely. The factory rep who was touring with the beast asked me how I liked it. Being polite, I told him it had an amazing motor. Then he got cute: "So when are you gonna trade that Triumph in on one?" Answer: "As soon as you're selling that motor in a real frame with some brakes."

Another inaccuracy from the motorcycling press, alas! The American market had more choices than Harley and "unreliable European sport bikes." BMW had a very healthy presence, and though '60's and early '70's BMWs wouldn't set any 1/4 mile records, you could hold an R60 or R69S at Interstate speeds with full gear and a passenger all day. The old "slash-2" series bikes were incredibly reliable for the day. I put a lot of miles on an R50, an R60, and an R69S, all of them bought used. Those bikes asked for nothing more than very basic maintenance, and never left me stranded or even made me pull a wrench on the side of the road.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hey, Griz, hahaha, "real frame", good one.

Wasn't sure about your northern market environment, but down here, with our 11 month riding season, discharging 'nam vets looking for rides, fuel shortages (yes, even down here), folks trading in their station wagons, we sold boatloads of everything. And with the Texas "miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles" highways, most of our customers sought reliable commuter and touring transportation. Not that many crazy street warriors. It wasn't until the Z's appeared that we saw a lot of dedicated "street warrior" setups. Except for the "CHiPs" show, most Z's down here ran without accessories. And, I missed out on what happened after that (1978).

The BMW crowd was another niche, almost cult, group. They kept to their own, it seems. Probably because they weren't in our shop much, didn't break down...

 

[grizld1]

Yeah, some BMW folks were the worst brand snobs I've ever run into, but Jim Underwood, the dealer in St. Joseph IL, was a very cool guy. I figured out that my R69S couldn't take full advantage of the hot cam BMW put in it because it couldn't breathe, so I cut the paper off the stock air filter, wrapped the core with Filtron foam, rode out to Jim's shop, and asked for suggestions on letting the exhaust breathe easy. I half expected him to run me off, but he just turned around, pulled a pair of straight-through glasspack muffs off the shelf, and said "I've been waiting for somebody to do that. Go bolt these on." I commenced the plug chops on the highway right in front of the shop. We were up 5 steps on the mains before the motor was happy. Those Bing carbies were odd, nothing but the main jets had to be touched. That bike ran like a scalded cat.

 

[weaselbeak]

Triumph & BSA brought out the triples in 68.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I liked the Trident and Rocket, but we only sold a few of them. Kinda hard to put my finger on it, but I believe folks regarded them as European exotics, like Jaguars. A familiar, yet somewhat unnerving clatter that whispered "I require 50% more fiddling than the Bonneville twin, but, you'll have 50% more street cred"...

 

[grizld1]

Yep, the shop I worked in had Honda and BSA franchises, and IIRC in my time there we stocked one Rocket III, which didn't sell. I rode the machine a few times and loved the way it rode and handled. The Honda was an overweight, top heavy beast in comparison. I wouldn't have bought either bike for myself; the Honda because of weight and handling, the BSA because a 1968 Bonneville had given me a severe allergy to Brit machinery.

 

[txxs]

I think it's hard to define a the word "superbike".

It's more like an era than an individual bike or the fastest bike etc.

Certainly the defining moment or landmark was when Honda released the CB750. This was long before the Z1.

 

[Yamaha77]

I think it's hard to define a the word "superbike".

It's more like an era than an individual bike or the fastest bike etc.

Certainly the defining moment or landmark was when Honda released the CB750. This was long before the Z1.

The 750 introduction was the defining moment. It was the first time the word "superbike" was used. That pretty much ends all debate.

 

[racerdave]

On a side note about the CB750: There is a nice write up in the current October edition of Rider, about Kurt Winter and his shop Valley Cyclesin Chatsworth Ca.that specializes on CB750's and other UJM's.

 

[Yamaha77]

Ironic that talk of the Z1 came up again. I just posted this morning in the lounge about mine when I was young. It was a monster and quite honestly scared me with all the power. Of course I had mine pumped up with a 1075kit. It was too much of a bike for my first street bike, which is why i ended up selling it. Sure wish I had it back today. Here is a crappy picture of another picture of it.
View attachment 88392

I would have kept that till the grave