Spacing sleeves cut, along with their #2-56 button head screws.
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Yamaha XS650 Experimental Clutch, version 2.0
- Thread starter TwoManyXS1Bs
- Start date
This shows how the shoulder screws (screws with spacing sleeves) fit into the steel plates.
Note that the screws have to be staggered into those (3) groups.
Next, dry fit test.
To be continued...
Note that the screws have to be staggered into those (3) groups.
Next, dry fit test.
To be continued...
Is that a Dremel cut-off wheel and Moto-tool in the lower portion of that last photo? I'd love to see a wider angle view of the lathe set-up if possible.
EDIT: ahhh, I see..it's a little pneumatic die-grinder.
BTW - your entire text is giving me quite a chuckle, 2M. The way you intermingle SI and British dimensions reminds me very much of how we do it here.
A Canadian engineer in Texas...cool!
EDIT: ahhh, I see..it's a little pneumatic die-grinder.
BTW - your entire text is giving me quite a chuckle, 2M. The way you intermingle SI and British dimensions reminds me very much of how we do it here.
A Canadian engineer in Texas...cool!
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
I am guessing the idea here is to manually separate the disks mechanically to get rid of clutch drag Right ? and your using an accordion style
mechanism this disk pulls the next disk which pulls the next through the stack....
this would provide positive separation of all disks .... if you can pull it off.... quite a challenge no doubt !
when the original clutch is pulled it moves the pressure plate out and the friction disks float in that small distance each metal disk between the friction disks must seek their own distance of least resistance.... while some plates take more room than others this causes a problem
with what your attempting to do.... for instance if one set of friction disk and metal plate need .003 to completely separate and not drag at all
and another needs .005 to do the same thing.... how will you account for that discrepancy ? is my understanding of the clutch wrong and they will all separate at the same .003 distance ? or will some still drag at that distance ?
.....
Bob......
Great work 2M Keep it going !!!!
mechanism this disk pulls the next disk which pulls the next through the stack....
this would provide positive separation of all disks .... if you can pull it off.... quite a challenge no doubt !
when the original clutch is pulled it moves the pressure plate out and the friction disks float in that small distance each metal disk between the friction disks must seek their own distance of least resistance.... while some plates take more room than others this causes a problem
with what your attempting to do.... for instance if one set of friction disk and metal plate need .003 to completely separate and not drag at all
and another needs .005 to do the same thing.... how will you account for that discrepancy ? is my understanding of the clutch wrong and they will all separate at the same .003 distance ? or will some still drag at that distance ?
.....
Bob......
Great work 2M Keep it going !!!!
Hey, Pete, it IS a dremel-type tool. A cable driven 1/2" handpiece, fitted into a QCTP holder. I'll get better pics of that setup. This pic shows it being used to finish hone an 8° taper in my ER-32 collet.
Haha, blame the forum for that. Prior to all this, I was a happy puppy contented in my English, decimal mils world. Then came the retorts from our Euro cousins, and I've adapted. They can't have my Texan drawl, tho'...
There's nothing like a Texas drawl when talking technology. My first job after university was with Schlumberger Wireline Services....and the Texans I worked with used to call me Pee-Air from Slum-bag-air. It sounds great on a drill floor loudspeaker at 3:00 AM!
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Bob, yes, that's the idea.
Been pulling it off since last year. Testing, adjusting, evaluating. Now's time for the reveal.
THAT's the problem, Bob. The discs don't necessarily float. In the videos of those older threads, you can see that the pressure plate moves out, but the clutchpack remains stuck together. They just slip/slide where they're at. There's nothing to cause them to separate, except for some of the experimental plates that use strange groove patterns to introduce oil turbulence to reduce viscous drag.
Increasing the pressure plate displacement, beyond a certain distance, doesn't help. In one of those vids, I show that you can completely remove the pressure plate, and the clutchpack remains stuck together.
A current problem being pursued by the auto transmission industry.
In this "separator" design, only the steel plates are pulled apart. A sandwiched friction plate will likely remain stuck to one of its adjacent steel plates. So, this will only separate at least half of the contacting surfaces. But, that friction plate will now have unimpeded room to skidder across, and release from that steel plate.
Thanx, Bob. Stay tuned...
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Can't wait to see how this works.
Pete
Pete
PM sent.
PM received.
Okay, this thread's on hold for awhile...
Okay, this thread's on hold for awhile...
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Ahhh Bummer ! thanks for answering my questions 2M ....
makes me wonder if a bunch of springs between the metal plates on rods going through the stack would be easier or not....
but then you'ed have to increase spring tension to over come that...... humm
it's always something ! hehehhe!
keep at it 2M don't let it get cold !
....
Bob........
makes me wonder if a bunch of springs between the metal plates on rods going through the stack would be easier or not....
but then you'ed have to increase spring tension to over come that...... humm
it's always something ! hehehhe!
keep at it 2M don't let it get cold !
....
Bob........
Two more PMs sent - this AM.
Pete
Pete
Ok, picking up where I left off, if I can remember the chain of thought.
MaxPete wanted to see a closeup of the spacer cutter in action. A QCTP mounted dremel cutoff tool with a bracketed stop screw. The crossfeed is moved back so that the stopscrew is aligned with the chuck center, the brass tubing is advanced to the stopscrew, then the lathe chuck is tightened.
The crossfeed is advanced to where the cutoff wheel almost touches the brass tubing, the lathe is switched on, the Dremel is switched on, and the crossfeed is slowly advanced until the sleeve is cut off.
This method can get the spacing sleeve lengths to within +/- 0.0005" (0.01mm). I just cut a bunch of them, take measurements, and hand select a batch that will get me the 0.0060" - 0.0065" desired spacing, as noted in post #20.
MaxPete wanted to see a closeup of the spacer cutter in action. A QCTP mounted dremel cutoff tool with a bracketed stop screw. The crossfeed is moved back so that the stopscrew is aligned with the chuck center, the brass tubing is advanced to the stopscrew, then the lathe chuck is tightened.
The crossfeed is advanced to where the cutoff wheel almost touches the brass tubing, the lathe is switched on, the Dremel is switched on, and the crossfeed is slowly advanced until the sleeve is cut off.
This method can get the spacing sleeve lengths to within +/- 0.0005" (0.01mm). I just cut a bunch of them, take measurements, and hand select a batch that will get me the 0.0060" - 0.0065" desired spacing, as noted in post #20.
Some small tools had to be made for this project, like the counterbore drills for the pressure plate and hub, and long reach handle for the 0.050" hex wrench.
Can't remember if I posted this before. To make it easier to check and align runout on the pressure plate, I chucked it up in the lathe, zeroed the runout by referencing on the backside friction face, then cut a narrow reference ring on the outside edge.
This makes it easier to true-up the pressure plate as posted in the other thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/yamaha-xs650-experimental-clutch.47498/page-4#post-503102
This makes it easier to true-up the pressure plate as posted in the other thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/yamaha-xs650-experimental-clutch.47498/page-4#post-503102
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The version 2.0 experimental clutch parts, ready for assembly.
A friction plate is installed, followed by a #1 steel disc.
IMPORTANT: The indexing mark on the steel discs MUST align with the hub's index mark.
Then, (3) #2-56 screws with spacers are installed in their #1 positions. For added security, I applied a tiny dollip of blue loctite to their threads.
The installation sequence continues with:
A friction plate, a #2 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #2 holes.
A friction plate, a #3 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #3 holes.
A friction plate, a #1 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #1 holes.
A friction plate, a #2 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #2 holes.
A friction plate, a #3 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #3 holes.
The clutchpack should now look like this:
Then, the last friction plate, followed by the pressure plate, and (3) of the longer spacer screws and sleeves into the new recessed pressure plate holes.
IMPORTANT: The indexing mark on the steel discs MUST align with the hub's index mark.
Then, (3) #2-56 screws with spacers are installed in their #1 positions. For added security, I applied a tiny dollip of blue loctite to their threads.
The installation sequence continues with:
A friction plate, a #2 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #2 holes.
A friction plate, a #3 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #3 holes.
A friction plate, a #1 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #1 holes.
A friction plate, a #2 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #2 holes.
A friction plate, a #3 steel disc, and (3) spacer screws in their #3 holes.
The clutchpack should now look like this:
Then, the last friction plate, followed by the pressure plate, and (3) of the longer spacer screws and sleeves into the new recessed pressure plate holes.
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You’re doing some impressive work there 2M.
Thanx, Pete. The hard part is getting all them holes aligned, drilled and tapped, and making the spacer screws.
After that, the assembly procedure is rather easy...
After that, the assembly procedure is rather easy...
Indeed - it’s a very clever piece of work. I can’t wait to hear how it functions!!
Pete
Pete
