82 XS650 Starts then dies

[peanut]

Yeah this thread has gotten out of control but let me quickly bring you up to speed the best I can by answering all of your questions.

"When the engine dies"
1.) The engine doesn't even make it to idle. It starts and dies please see

adding choke just does the same thing at a higher RPM.
2.) If I rev the engine it dies in the same amount of time as in the video.

"Immediately after it cuts out and won't restart, have you checked to see that...."
1.) It will restart immediately after dying on me and I have a spark tester and I see a nice light every fire
2.) I am not sure about fuel on the spark plugs I didn't pull them out between fires but the bowls are full and as I said before it will fire/die again right after.

good video and some very helpful information .
So we've learnt some important points . It starts willingly and runs without backfiring or popping so its highly likely that the timing isn't far off.

The wiring loom is just hanging loose which could mean that you have poor or inadequate grounding somewhere or possibly a short. Check that all the electrical componants that need to be bolted to the frame for a ground are grounded somehow.

The other thing I would suggest is to disconnect the gas tank from the carbs and rig up a plastic bottle to feed the fuel line to the carbs and use some fresh gas.

 

[Cal Schilling]

So the wiring was only ripped out of the bike after this problem occurred so I think everything is grounded properly but I'll get the wiring diagram out. It has had fresh gas in it for every test I have done and it still isnt running. I was using 91 octane like it suggested in the manual. But after I fix the components in the TCI I will get new gas and figure out how to rig it up to the carbs.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Regarding cleaning the electrical contacts, I have used a method from Youtube:

Mix up vinegar (white or brown) with a lot of salt and immerse the connectors in it for about 1 minute. I even put the whole plastic connectors in and they clean up well, saves dismantling them. When you take the connectors out just rince them in water/baking soda followed by water. Then spray them liberally with WD40 and wipe any excess off the outside. The connectors can all be done without removing the harness from the bike.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

this is a crazy thread...

Yew betcha, peanut!

Myself, I'm working from the 'Murphy Handbook'.
Item 37: "When things stop making sense, suspect the semiconductor electronics."

If I had a later model, with the TCI black box, I *might* be able to reverse-engineer the thing, and cook-up a fix. But, for now, I'm no help at all...

 

[peanut]

Yew betcha, peanut!

Myself, I'm working from the 'Murphy Handbook'.
Item 37: "When things stop making sense, suspect the semiconductor electronics."

If I had a later model, with the TCI black box, I *might* be able to reverse-engineer the thing, and cook-up a fix. But, for now, I'm no help at all...

it sure would be helpful to have a spare TCI to substitute

Like you I'd probably look for an ignitor from another vehicle and coddle something together with gaffa tape and paperclips
I like to say ....'oh I enjoy the challenge ' ,....which I do.......... but the real answer is probably that I've learnt to be inventive due to lack of adequate funding .

My old 944S2 failed the MOT on rust in the sill. New sills are not currently available from Porsche but cost $500+ when they are so I searched around and bought a Ford van sill for about $35 . Welding it on myself has saved me over $2000 so I feel pretty pleased with myself at the moment.

Apologies for the thread hijack cal ......how are you getting on today ?

 

[littlebill31]

I watched the video and it sounds like my one bike. It was the TCI.
Started, then sounded like it lost a cylinder, than dies.
That was when a "Professional" shop failed to listen to me and remove my TCI before they welded on the frame.

 

[MaxPete]

Hi Cal: I've read this whole thread and FWIW, I agree with Bill - but let me summarize and you check off as you read.

You've done everything on the fuel side and cleaned up all of the electrical connectors. The fact that it readily starts and runs briefly means that your timing is correct - or nearly so. You have also checked that the high voltage leads are good all the way from the coils to the spark plugs, including checking that the ends are screwed onto the wires securely at both the coil and spark plug. The plugs themselves are good and are installed nice and snug.

You've checked all of the various safety relays and sidestand switches - and they're operating properly.

It cranks reliably, so you have checked the starter safety relay - under the RH side cover. Looks like a voltage regulator. Remove the two tiny screws and make sure that everything inside is clean.

A couple of additional questions:

Did you have a look inside the kill switch? No loose contacts or other gremlins in there....?

Also - what happens if you try to rev the bike up after it starts? Your video showed a good start and a decent idle for a few seconds (you noted as long as 30-45 second occasionally). My 650 won't idle steadily for too long until I've goosed it a couple of times and then it settles down.

If all of that checks out, then I agree with Bill that you're down to the electronics....can you get a TCI on the web and try it?

Pete

 

[peanut]

I
That was when a "Professional" shop failed to listen to me and remove my TCI before they welded on the frame.

argghhhhh ....garage mechanic jump started my car with the jump leads the wrong way round last week. Wondered why he was getting a load of sparks doh!
Hopefully it hasn't fried the ECU

 

[Cal Schilling]

If I had a later model, with the TCI black box, I *might* be able to reverse-engineer the thing, and cook-up a fix. But, for now, I'm no help at all...

I went to a yamaha store today and talked to the owner he is going to see if he can find me a TCI off of one of the bikes he has in the back. I also got new resistors and a new Zener Diode for mine. I am going to try to replace my components and see if that works. If all else fails and I get the "new" TCI I wouldn't be against sending you one so you can reverse engineer it.

As for Max

Under the right side cover of the bike... my bike hasn't seen side covers in a while and I have pulled all the electrical out to look like a mess of wires to try to see if there is any damage. I am assuming this:

is what we are talking about. and if so then yes it is fine (sorry if posting things from another site is against the rules or something I did a quick google search and found it)

I cleaned out the kill switch just in case there was a gremlin in there I have put it back together and will test fire again tomorrow.

As for reving the bike, it will rev up high for the same amount of time as the video. I can start the bike 100s of times and have the same result as the video. Yes every once in a while it will run for about half a minute and then die sometimes thats on first start sometimes its after 100.

And I will let you know if a new TCI is in my future soon.

 

[MaxPete]

Dang! OK Cal - stick at it. You WILL get this bugger to run and when you do, we'll all have learned something (even if it's just some new vocabulary).

Pete

 

[peanut]

I looked at your video but coudn't see if your TCI was bolted to the frame or just hanging on the loom.

Some ignitors need to be bolted to the frame ,not only for grounding but also so that the frame can act as a heatsink to keep the TCI unit cool. Someone with some experience of these units will know.
The other thing you should perhaps check is the ipickup coils on the stator

Might be something of interest on this thread. http://www.xs650.com/threads/how-to-troubleshoot-the-tci-ignition-system.24161/

 

[littlebill31]

The tci is mounted to the bottom of the battery box, which is rubber mounted itself. The tci has a seperate ground also.
Im still with the tci or pick-up camp on this one.

 

[peanut]

The tci is mounted to the bottom of the battery box, which is rubber mounted itself. The tci has a seperate ground also.
Im still with the tci or pick-up camp on this one.

bill.
cal has removed his wiring loom and all the components are hanging in the air .
Some components ground through their body contact to the frame and some like a Zener diode must have a good clamp to the chassis in order to dissipate heat.
I was wondering if cals TCI was bolted to the frame or just hanging with the rest of the stuff

 

[littlebill31]

Gotcha. But the tci stil has a ground wire. It doesnt need to be mounted. Ive ran them with it in my hand or hanging free.

 

[Paul Sutton]

I have checked the parts list on "shopyamaha" and the ignition setup is basically identical to the XS SH. The TCI is in the same plastic box which is held in with 2 bolts under the battery and behind the regulator. The box is not earthed (plastic) and the TCI has a black wire that goes to the harness earth wire via the TCI pin connector. Heating is minimal from the switching transistor since it is only ever switched fully on or off. The transistor has a small minimal heat sink without any fins. The plastic box essentially has no ventilation but does have two small holes facing down which I assume are for the release of water/vapour. I suspect the Zener diode mentioned is one of the small glass ones located on the PCB - they handle only a few milliamps and do not require heat sinks.

Perhaps the TCI is faulty or even the coil? We have a real puzzle here! If the TCI has a doublesided PCB then all the semiconductor components are available, unlike the XS SH single sided PCB.

Note Added: Are those 5K ohm resistor caps on the plugs. They are generally a must with electronic ignition (TCI) to prevent electrical interference to the control board.

 

[littlebill31]

Id be willing to let you borrow a TCI I have. However, it is for an '81, which is 6 pin. The '82 has a 7 pin, so a minor modification would be needed on your end. (Side stand safety switch)

 

[Paul Sutton]

Does the 7th wire simply get grounded?

 

[peanut]

Gotcha. But the tci stil has a ground wire. It doesnt need to be mounted. Ive ran them with it in my hand or hanging free.

okidoki ....I wasn't sure as I've not owned a late model with TCI

Good to see you back .

 

[littlebill31]

Heres a theead gggGary made about the conversion.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/tci-6-pin-and-8-pin-interchange-information.47954/

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

... I wouldn't be against sending you one so you can reverse engineer it...

Egads, me and my big mouth!

I'd need a complete TCI bike, plus the urgent need to fix it.
A seriously deep black hole.

Here's a member's previous attempt to reverse-engineer one.