'79 XS650 alternator/stator help

Tom

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Hi all, amateur here with a '79 XS650F. I took off the left side engine cover to give it a bit of a polish and noticed my alternator setup is different from that i've seen online. I don't have brushes so I'm assuming the PO changed it to a PMA type setup?

The unit has 'DENJO JAPAN M LMX55 MEEF 037000-16701FX' on it if this helps?

See images below. If anyone can let me know what this is and if it's aftermarket or stock that would be ace. Thanks!
 

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Any chance that would be DENSO not DENJO? It is not stock for the XS650. But was stock for some model modified to work on your XS. Or that is my thoughts anyway.
 
If you can find a part number on it, you can search the part number at Partzilla or a similar site. If it's a stock part, that should tell you what bike it came from.
 
Hi all, amateur here with a '79 XS650F. I took off the left side engine cover to give it a bit of a polish and noticed my alternator setup is different from that i've seen online. I don't have brushes so I'm assuming the PO changed it to a PMA type setup?
The unit has 'DENJO JAPAN M LMX55 MEEF 037000-16701FX' on it if this helps?
See images below. If anyone can let me know what this is and if it's aftermarket or stock that would be ace. Thanks!

Hi Tom,
the photos show that the dreaded PO replaced your bike's stock alternator with a PMA but you didn't mention the important thing:-
DOES IT WORK?
If yes, you are golden.
If no you have a problem.
 
Tom, remembering your fist post with all the white stator (PMA)/rectifier wires disconnected, it is likely there were charging issues. There are plenty of PMA threads as well as charging threads. It may be time to break out the VOM.
 
Tom you have started a second post about the same subject which is likely to lead to confusion . ;)

You haven't told us..... does your alternator work ?
Are you asking us to help sort out your wiring and get your charging system to work ? or are you just curious about the source of manufacture of your pma ?

I'm assuming that your charging system is not working and you need some help wiring up the PMA .
I have included a simple explanation at the end ,of how the stock charging ststem and a PMA system work and the various differences which should give you an overview .
.....................................................................................................................
you have a PMA alternator fitted so discard the black wire from your stator.(in your left hand)... its redundant.

Connect the 3x remaining white AC wires from the Stator to the 3x white AC wires going to the PMA Rect/Regulator.(in your right hand)

Now you would normally need to connect a ground wire and a 12v+ wire to the rectifier/regulator but we don't know which rect/regulator you have fitted.You cannot use the original stock rectifier and regulator modules with a PMA alternator.

BEFORE you connect anything I would recommend that you show us a picture of your rectifier /regulator so we'll be able to tell you what to connect to where .


STOCK ELECTRO MAGNETIC ALTERNATOR

The standard 1979 XS650 charging system has an alternator which is electro magnetic .This means it requires a 12v+ supply and a ground (black wire ),connected to the Rotor winding in order for the Rotor to become a magnet so that it will create a 3 phase AC current in the Stator when the crankshaft spins the rotor inside the Stator.

Therefore on a standard 79 xs650 with stock charging system you would expect to see 3x white AC wires , 1x black ground wire and one green 12v+ wire coming out of the Stator to the stator plug.

There will also be a pale blue wire feeding the neutral switch and a yellow wire that controls your safety relay but we can forget those as they have no part to play in the charging system.

The three white wires from the stator connect to the 3x white wires going to the Rectifier module and can connect in any order. These carry the AC current to the rectifier which then converts it to DC voltage to charge the battery.

The black stator wire which connects to the rotor inner brush needs to be connected directly to a permanent ground (battery negative) via the frame and should normally be connected in the stator plug/socket.

The green wire takes a 12v+ current from regulator module and supplies it to the rotor outer brush via the stator plug socket. This 12v+ current going through the rotor to ground via the black wire creates the necessary electo magnet in the Rotor which can be tested by placing a metal object close to the stator with the ignition switched on, (slap test)

To avoid the battery being over charged the regulator module monitors the DC current and when the voltage reaches 14.8v it disconnects the green wire 12v+ supply to the rotor therebye cancelling the electo magnet effect in the Rotor and stopping the stator producing an AC current .Once the DC voltage drops to below about 14.2v the regulator reconnects the 12v+ supply to the Rotor (green wire) therebye reconnecting the charging system

I have tried to make this explanation as simple and concise as I can yet still maintain clarity about how the stock alternator functions. With this information is is simple to test the various parts of the charging system to identify a non functioning component, wire or connection.

If there are any errors or omissions in this text I hope someone will point them out to me so that I can make the necessary amendment.



Permanent Magnet Alternator (PMA)

The Rotor of a PMA does not require a 12v+ supply nor does it require a ground so we can eliminate the green and black wires from the Stator plug . Probably best to retain the spade connectors and insulate them in case the bike is returned to stock at some future date.

The 3x white wires from the stator carry the 3 phase AC current generated by the PMA Rotor just the same as the stock charging system and that is all the wires you need to connect from the Stator to the Rectifier/Regulator.

The stock Rectifier and Regulator will not work with a PMA system and a PMA will require a dedicated Rectifier Regulator unit to regulate the batteries charging current to prevent over charging. The correct Reg/Rectifier should be supplied with the PMA alternator as a kit like the kit supplied by TCBros and others and will either regulate the DC current or the AC current to prevent overcharging.
 
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First post was about the regulator and this post is asking what sort of set up I have as it's foreign to me (i.e not stock and not a PMA that's usually sold). I've been told by the PO that the bike does run and charge but i've yet to confirm that. I have a battery on the way, fingers crossed!

Thanks for the usefull info! I'll be sure to read through it over the next few day in order to get the bike running.


Tom you have started a second post about the same subject which is likely to lead to confusion . ;)

You haven't told us..... does your alternator work ?
Are you asking us to help sort out your wiring and get your charging system to work ? or are you just curious about the source of manufacture of your pma ?

I'm assuming that your charging system is not working and you need some help wiring up the PMA .
I have included a simple explanation at the end ,of how the stock charging ststem and a PMA system work and the various differences which should give you an overview .
.....................................................................................................................
If you have confirmed that your bike has been fitted with a PMA type Rectifier/ regulator then discard the black wire from your stator.... its redundant.

Connect the 3x remaining white AC wires from the Stator to the 3x white AC wires at the PMA Rect/Regulator.

Now you'll need to connect a ground wire and a 12v+ wire to the rect/regulator but without knowing which rect/regulator you have fitted I cannot tell which wires to connect to the reg/rect other than green wires are generally ground wires and 12v+ wires are generally red, red /white or brown .
Show us a picture of your rectifier /regulator and we'll be able to tell you what to connect to where .


STOCK ELECTRO MAGNETIC ALTERNATOR

The standard 1979 XS650 charging system has an alternator which is electro magnetic .This means it requires a 12v+ supply and a ground (black wire ),connected to the Rotor winding in order for the Rotor to become a magnet so that it will create a 3 phase AC current in the Stator when the crankshaft spins the rotor inside the Stator.

Therefore on a standard 79 xs650 with stock charging system you would expect to see 3x white AC wires , 1x black ground wire and one green 12v+ wire coming out of the Stator to the stator plug.

There will also be a pale blue wire feeding the neutral switch and a yellow wire that controls your safety relay but we can forget those as they have no part to play in the charging system.

The three white wires from the stator connect to the 3x white wires going to the Rectifier module and can connect in any order. These carry the AC current to the rectifier which then converts it to DC voltage to charge the battery.

The black stator wire which connects to the rotor inner brush needs to be connected directly to a permanent ground (battery negative) via the frame and should normally be connected in the stator plug/socket.

The green wire takes a 12v+ current from regulator module and supplies it to the rotor outer brush via the stator plug socket. This 12v+ current going through the rotor to ground via the black wire creates the necessary electo magnet in the Rotor which can be tested by placing a metal object close to the stator with the ignition switched on, (slap test)

To avoid the battery being over charged the regulator module monitors the AC current and periodically disconnects the green wire 12v+ supply to the rotor therebye cancelling the electo magnet effect in the Rotor and stopping the stator producing an AC current .

I have tried to make this explanation as simple and concise as I can yet still maintain clarity about how the stock alternator functions. With this information is is simple to test the various parts of the charging system to identify a non functioning component, wire or connection.

If there are any errors or omissions in this text I hope someone will point them out to me so that I can make the necessary amendment.



Permanent Magnet Alternator (PMA)

The Rotor of a PMA does not require a 12v+ supply nor does it require a ground so we can eliminate the green and black wires from the Stator plug . Probably best to retain the spade connectors and insulate them in case the bike is returned to stock at some future date.

The 3x white wires from the stator carry the 3 phase AC current generated by the PMA Rotor just the same as the stock charging system and that is all the wires you need to connect from the Stator to the Rectifier/Regulator.

The stock Rectifier and Regulator will not work with a PMA system and a PMA will require a dedicated Rectifier Regulator unit to regulate the batteries charging current to prevent over charging. The correct Reg/Rectifier should be supplied with the PMA alternator as a kit like the kit supplied by TCBros and others and will either regulate the DC current or the AC current to prevent overcharging.
 
The main wiring loom is in a bit of a mess. I'm considering buying a new one from Mikes as they're only $60 and i'd spend more than that trying to fix it and replace all the terminals etc. Based on my PMA set up, i'm assuming that standard harness for my bike wont be a plug and play. Will any of the other years be or due to the mods, will i need to adapt it? Thanks!
 
Tom I'd stick with your original harness for the time being until you get everything working at least or you will probably introduce another lot of problems and its a big job anyway.

let us have a picture of your rectifier regulator so we can see that you have the correct one fitted. My guess is that the previous owner has tried to make the PMA alternator work with the stock rectifier and regulator and it wont work.
 
if it is a non- PMA regulator as I suspected.... then that is probably the reason why the PO sold the bike cheap. He probably spent hours scratching his head trying to get it to work :)

You're going to need to either buy a PMA regulator/rectifier to go with the PMA Rotor or refit the original Electomagnet Rotor and use it with the reg/rectifier you have there if it still works

For anyone wondering what the difference is between a stock type regulator like this one which works with a electromagnet Rotor and a PMA (permanent magnet alternator) regulator and why an electromagnet rotor won't function with a PMA I'm going to let our resident guru 2M explain that ;)
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IMG_6798.JPG
 
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Thanks. Is there any explantion of how the bike would kick start, idle and rev with this regulator if it's the wrong one? I'm assuming it would just run without charging the battery?

Other PMA set ups show three yellow wires coming from the stator. I have 5, 3x white, 1x black and 1x yellow coming from the stator. Hmm

compare your regulator and this PMA regulator .;)

I found this with a simple search on ebay for ' XS650 PMA Regulator ' Its very cheap and it is wired up with a XS650 specific electricaI connector
I suggest you buy it, read the instructions and fit it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PMA-Voltage-Regulator-Rectifier-Unit-XS650-chopper-stator-bobber-hardtail-tx650-/162559404780?hash=item25d94baaec:g:yDwAAOSw5cNYRVG
View attachment 101394 View attachment 101395
 

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The later 72-on XS650s have a yellow wire emerging from the stator. It's "center tapped" to the stator's "wye" winding configuration, and supplies power to the safety relay. It will show continuity to the three-phase wiring.

Just off the top of my head, I'd expect a PMA wired to a 7-wire excitor-type regulator to simply pump full power thru the 3-phase rectifier section, unregulated, and produce damaging overvoltage. That could definitely affect the engine running.

I'd recommend thoroughly investigating your setup, checking continuity (if any) from those extra 2 wires to everything else, including each other and ground.

This is called "reverse engineering".
Put on yer detective hat...
 
Tom you are mixing up the battery charging system with the engine ignition system .
The PMA and regulator /rectifier have nothing to do with starting and running the engine. They could be removed from the bike and provided the battery is charged the engine will start and run fine off just the battery for a while.I once rode 50+ miles at night on the battery once using torches for lighting
Everything runs off the battery ............not the PMA Regulator rectifier.

What is the image of ? is it your bike or something you saw somewhere. What are you showing us
IMG_6817.JPG
 
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