Another "diagnose my mystery noise" post.....

highboy_coupe

highboy_coupe

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I know it's really hard to judge from a crappy phone video which isolates the treble, unfortunately I don't have any "real life" XSs near by that I can go and inspect, so any input would be really helpful.

I replaced the missing washer on my cam-chain tensioner, which removed one metallic clattering noise, but.... I noticed the other noise has remained, which is more a tapping noise, it is not present when the oil is cold (I'm using 15W/40 tractor oil).
Now, I know I can't expect modern water-cooled levels of engine refinement, but this seems excessive, I might be wrong...

My cam-chain is tensioner to a point where with the engine running the rod never sticks out past the end of the adjuster nut.

My valves are at .003 and .006

I used a stethoscope at the points on the front of the engine where I have seen people check the front tensioner and there is no noise there, it seems more pronounced near the back right hand side.

I used the stethoscope all round really, and there wans't a point on the head where the noise suddenly became louder to me.

The head has been off at some point.


Thanks
 
Hmmmmm....that sounds a bit like the noise my bike was making after the plastic piece fell off the timing chain guide....

I can’t seem to attach it here but if you refer to my thread “Lucille pulls another one on me” - it is posted as a YouTube video.

Pull off the sump plate and look for bits of hard black plastic. :sick:
 
MaxPete said:
Hmmmmm....that sounds a bit like the noise my bike was making after the plastic piece fell off the timing chain guide....

I can’t seem to attach it here but if you refer to my thread “Lucille pulls another one on me” - it is posted as a YouTube video.

Pull off the sump plate and look for bits of hard black plastic. :sick:
Click to expand...

Cheers, there was nothing in the old oil that it came with, and nothing in the new oil! I have changed the oil about 4 times now!
Unless it came off a long time ago.....
The thing is, the old oil had definitely been in there for a loooong time, the sump cover was dirty and there where no signs of disturbance.
 
OK - well, that's good.

Did you listen to the noise my Lucille was making? Here is the link to the video.....


To my ears, those two bikes sound eerily similar. Lucille's noise turned out to be the timing chain slapping against the bare metal front chain guide. Nothing else to do but to pull the engine and the head - and replace the guide.

Sorry....
 
I guess so... I know it's hard to tell with the phone recording, I kind of thought my noise was "tinnier" and not as pronounced, but then again, there is a noise and if it isn't normal I suppose I need to look at how to take the engine out/remove the head/put it all back together!!

Oh, one thing, did your bike make the same noise all through the rev range? I heard that the chain tightens up and stops making contact when not idling. My bike continues to make the noise under driving conditions, it's not really audible in higher gears though.

Thanks
 
Thanks, I'll give it another shot, I was mainly probing around the front trying to listen for a cam-chain noise.
I am not looking forward to pulling the engine, I have limited space and even more limited knowledge and skill.

I see I can do it without breaking the chain, or removing the jugs. I might have to check how much a garage would charge, I just don't think I have the skill to get it back together again.
 
Last edited:
highboy_coupe said:
...If it is the front tensioner, I have to remove the jugs as well as the head?
Click to expand...

The jugs can stay, but there's the risk of future oil weepage from its base gasket. It's a good idea to peek down the cylinders, check for scoring, ...etc.

highboy_coupe said:
...And can I keep the cam-chain intact and reuse it?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't. Another one of those "false economy" things. It could be stretched, and part of the problem.

But, I come from a dealership shop environment. We never did partial fixes, and didn't recommend such. Largely due to shop policy, but often find other things in there that need attention, and the negotiating gets messy. A damaged or questionable part just can't be talked into being OK...
 
I don't think your motor sounds too terribly bad. It might just be the 40 wt. oil you're using. 50 wt. is the norm and 40 will allow more topend "clatter". You might try switching to some 20W-50 and see what happens. I'd certainly try that before tearing it all down.
 
Thanks, I'll certainly give it a go.. I will also double check valve clearance again. Make sure there's oil getting up there too...
 
The fact that it doesn't do it when cold is another indicator that the oil may be the issue. When cold, it's still thick enough to deaden the topend noise. Once heated and thinned, it's not. I tried that 15W-40 myself but changed back to the 20W-50 because I didn't like the increased "clatter" the 40W produced. It's been a few years since I did that but I'd say your motor sounds a lot like mine did with the 40W in it. Yes, this is an old motor and old design so more engine noise is to be expected, but you want more of a "tsk, tsk, tsk ...." than a "click, click, click ....".
 
highboy_coupe said:
I guess so... I know it's hard to tell with the phone recording, I kind of thought my noise was "tinnier" and not as pronounced, but then again, there is a noise and if it isn't normal I suppose I need to look at how to take the engine out/remove the head/put it all back together!!

Oh, one thing, did your bike make the same noise all through the rev range? I heard that the chain tightens up and stops making contact when not idling. My bike continues to make the noise under driving conditions, it's not really audible in higher gears though.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Yes - I think that it was making the noise whenever the engine was running, but at higher engine and road speeds, it wasn't as audible.

As for the effect of the timing chain tightening up at higher speeds - eeeeyyyyaaahhh, I suppose that might be true but the torque on the camshaft and crankshaft are not constant and so, I suspect that the chain still flaps around at all speeds and thus, it likely hits to guide to one extent or another.

Getting the engine out and apart is not really a big deal. Removal is a job for two husky guys (it weighs about 160 lbs) and takes about an hour or less. Removal of the head and cylinder barrel will take another hour or so.

I'm sure you know this - but at the risk of offending, I will venture to advise you to buy/swipe some zip-lock baggies and/or a bunch of Tupperware buckets to keep all of the parts in. Also - take pictures are you disassemble things.

Pete
 
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Ha, I take no offence to anything! Thank you!
I had thought, bags bags and more bags, photos and a clean uncluttered work environment.

I have a very small garage, so not sure about the last one. Is there a one man version of getting the engine out? I'm husky, I deadlift 460lbs in the gym, but I guess it is an awkard shape/angle.
 
My one light man method:
  • Disconnect all the bits from the engine. Do not forget the starter motor cable
  • Pad the front of the frame so the exhaust studs do not scratch
  • Remove the left side cover
  • With all mount bolts removed the engine will sit in the cradle of the frame
  • Cover the frame where the tank was with thick padding like a folded up blanket
  • Make a platform from some wood on the right side and level with the bottom of the frame
  • Sit on the battery box where the seat was and lean forward with your chest on the blanket. Your chest and arms will take all the strain rather than your back. The padding stops your chest getting bruised from the bits sticking out of the frame
  • With right hand under the right clutch cover and left hand on the left head near the sparkplug tilt the engine to the left. This is needed to clear the frame in the region where the top engine mounts were
  • With engine tilted place left hand under the alternator and with both hands lift the engine up and rest on the lower right frame. Get comfortable and then lift and slide engine on to the wooden platform
  • Done
The engine balances nicely when held under the alternator and under the kicker. To replace the engine just work in reverse. I recommend wrapping the frame in the exhaust port region and down where the frame will likely get scratched by the alternator and on the right where you may rest the engine during the lifting out above the bottom center mount bolt. My wooden platform gets built on a 4 wheeled trolley so I can roll it away for working on.

This works for me but unfortunately I have no video. I am husky with a cold and can bench press 40lbs twice, once up and then once down.
 
Paul Sutton said:
My one light man method:
  • Disconnect all the bits from the engine. Do not forget the starter motor cable
  • Pad the front of the frame so the exhaust studs do not scratch
  • Remove the left side cover
  • With all mount bolts removed the engine will sit in the cradle of the frame
  • Cover the frame where the tank was with thick padding like a folded up blanket
  • Make a platform from some wood on the right side and level with the bottom of the frame
  • Sit on the battery box where the seat was and lean forward with your chest on the blanket. Your chest and arms will take all the strain rather than your back. The padding stops your chest getting bruised from the bits sticking out of the frame
  • With right hand under the right clutch cover and left hand on the left head near the sparkplug tilt the engine to the left. This is needed to clear the frame in the region where the top engine mounts were
  • With engine tilted place left hand under the alternator and with both hands lift the engine up and rest on the lower right frame. Get comfortable and then lift and slide engine on to the wooden platform
  • Done
The engine balances nicely when held under the alternator and under the kicker. To replace the engine just work in reverse. I recommend wrapping the frame in the exhaust port region and down where the frame will likely get scratched by the alternator and on the right where you may rest the engine during the lifting out above the bottom center mount bolt. My wooden platform gets built on a 4 wheeled trolley so I can roll it away for working on.

This works for me but unfortunately I have no video. I am husky with a cold and can bench press 40lbs twice, once up and then once down.
Click to expand...

THIS IS GREAT!! I might be using exactly this method in the next week or so.

Thanks Paul.

The other way to do it is to remove all the mount bolts (the engine will sit in the frame as Paul states) and then simply lay the entire bike down on its RH side and wiggle the engine out of the cradle - and then lift the frame back up vertical - leaving the engine on the floor on its right hand side.

(I'd put down a blanket or several layers of cardboard)

Pete
 
Indeed - 160 lbs shouldn't be too hard.

Robin and I used his 2-man method a couple of weeks back and it also worked really well:
  • disconnect everything and remove exhaust system and the carburettors (plus fuel tank etc.);
  • take out all of the engine mounting bolts EXCEPT the big long one under the middle of the engine (as noted, the engine balances quite well);
  • put a hydraulic floor jack under the engine sump and lift it a bit to take the weight;
  • attach a piece of strap (old car seat belt) etc. to the rear-most and front engine mounts (just thread a bolt into the fibres of the strap);
  • insert a 4 ft long piece of iron pipe into the straps;
  • raise the floor jack another inch or so and withdraw the last engine mounting bolt;
  • lift the engine out toward the RH side of the bike using the pipes like a stretcher (may require a bit of wiggling to clear the starter etc.).
It is a bit of a lift for the guy on the left, but it really works well and nobody gets hurt.

Pete
 
Very interesting engine removal Video by Travis Smith:
This method can be adapted in so many ways, but remember, the lifting gear including the roof rafter must be capable of taking that 160lb beast!

When it comes to putting the motor back view the following video:
This is such a cool method but I cannot physically do it. Just another useful video courtesy of blimeolriley (AKA Peanut).
 

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