Calibrated Fingers

[gggGary]

Dunno if this has a basis in fact but when tightening a critical nut (like tappet lock nut WER?) I don't like to ease into the final snug but rather finish with a bit of a sharp tug. Seems like it creates a stop point that is less likely to loosen. There may be a bit of truth to this, look up micro welding and threads. I use this method on lug nuts also.

 

[TimeMachine]

An example where personal intuitive "feel" or preference is clearly needed is carbureator float bowls. Variables such as carb body thread condition, fastener choice, flatness of the float bowl, and gasket condition all together create a touchy situation. If one were to follow rigid torque specs (I doubt there are in this case) the risk of a carb bowl leak or damage could easily result. Each float bowl screw is treated as a unique challenge by myself. There are so many other features of our XS's which also have variables, We must at times use torque specs as guidelines and make a decision. We must rely on our best judgement at times ! -RT

 

[Max Midnight]

Well, gggGary's links provide very interesting info.... and insight into bolt fastening.

..... I knew it was important to have clean threads that turn easy but never gave it much thought before....
no doubt I will be applying lube to the threads more often and getting me another torque wrench again.

Er, wasn't it mmmMax Midnight who posted the links? No matter.

Also, another point to note is that Yameringha's torque values are, quote "are for dry, clean threads. Torquing should always be done to the nut, never the bolt head."
Yamaha XS650E Service Manual section 6.1 refers

 

[YamadudeXS650C]

An example where personal intuitive "feel" or preference is clearly needed is carbureator float bowls. Variables such as carb body thread condition, fastener choice, flatness of the float bowl, and gasket condition all together create a touchy situation. If one were to follow rigid torque specs (I doubt there are in this case) the risk of a carb bowl leak or damage could easily result. Each float bowl screw is treated as a unique challenge by myself. There are so many other features of our XS's which also have variables, We must at times use torque specs as guidelines and make a decision. We must rely on our best judgement at times ! -RT

Hmmm..............
I'm wondering if you really want to use the term "intuitive", which means thought not immediately guided by evidence or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired, in that you mention the importance of consideration real-world, tangible variables such as " carb body thread condition, fastener choice, flatness of the float bowl, and gasket condition". Sounds more like you are describing a process of 'action guided by information,' which is sensible to me.

 

[TimeMachine]

Okay Yamadude, I'll gladly accept a more reasonable, thoughtful description of action.. Although at times being "intuitive" is a very real aspect of how I behave. Being untuitive is as well a needed mind set to contribute in riding ?

 

[Bob Kelly III]

LOL MY Bad ! Sorry Max ! yes it was You !
thank you ...the avatar threw me off ! LOL
.....
Bob........

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Might as well link these in here:

http://www.xs650.com/threads/what-to-use-on-the-bolts-for-a-top-end-job.27533/

http://www.xs650.com/threads/tap-and-die-sizes-for-rebuild.31642/

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...One item which I have found difficult to properly tighten to specs is the countershaft sprocket nut.

... How did I loosen a too tight sprocket nut ? Reluctantly, an impact driver and 36mm socket. Common practice Im not sure ? So after attempting to torque the nut on installation, I decided to "seat" it in using the same 36mm socket and impact driver...

... Cringe and a big bump and its all over !

... but I have wondered about the possibility of damage by that impact ?

The only thing resisting that lateral impact is the final drive bearing, a ball bearing. Non-deep-groove ball bearings don't like axial loads. Kinda like installing wheel bearings without the inner spacer...

 

[gggGary]

I'd be more likely to use a hammer maul etc on the end of a breaker bar on a socket to provide that last setting bump to the nut.

 

[YamadudeXS650C]

Okay Yamadude, I'll gladly accept a more reasonable, thoughtful description of action.. Although at times being "intuitive" is a very real aspect of how I behave. Being untuitive is as well a needed mind set to contribute in riding ?

Yup, there certainly are places in one's daily life where intuition (I'll assume you meant to say intuitive in your last sentence) can be important, such as is our relationships, and sometimes our jobs (I'm retired, but I utilized intuition a great deal in my profession). Although I am typically in an immediate-observant-thoughtful-critical-decisive mind set while driving the bike, in order to be defensive and stay alive, there certainly are moments when I "let go" of that cerebral attitude to have fun, perhaps best illustrated by the song, "If you want to be a Bird."

 

[TimeMachine]

Twomany & gggGary, those are exactly the concerns which were on my mind. Having no access to an air impact , I did resort to and did "cringe" a little.. Im wondering how many guys have loosened a stuck sprocket nut with a mechanical impact driver ? In less than optimum circumstances sometimes a guy just " gets it done"

 

[TimeMachine]

Yamadude, thats cool ! I aint quite that free spirited but I certainly do ride to escape stress and structure ! The most "Freedom" escape I've found yet to experience in life , risk accepted

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Some areas are judgement calls. Warning, this comes from my days of wrenchin' in the '70s. Don't know about modern stuff.

Honda handlebar clamps have one end which is a bit longer than the other, as indicated by arrows, or tiny punch marks. The taller/longer part is always fitted to the front, or leading direction. The bolts in those are torqued to spec. The rearward, backside, bolts provide the controlled clamping.

The factory setting for the backside, clamping bolts was to provide sufficient clamping force to keep the handlebar from rotating during normal usage, like from rider weight bearing down. However, the clamping force should be light enough to allow the handlebars to rotate forward during a frontal impact, like when the rider's knees/thighs *bonk* into the thing.

This is a combination of rider safety, and reduction of recoverable equipment damage, as in being able to re-orient the handle bars and ride the bike home.

The left-hand and right-hand threaded mirrors is another. The locking nuts are torqued down enuff to keep the mirrors in place, but to also allow release when *bonking* into other immovable objects. Again, swing them back into place, and go on your way.

For motocross and dirt track, it really helps to adjust the clamping force on clutch and front brake lever perches to allow them to rotate on impact. Saves the levers, and the rider can quickly re-enter the race. Just torque them down enuff to stay in place during normal riding.

How much torque here? Are the handlebars chromed, or aluminum, or stainless, or painted, or serrated, or rusted?

Judgement call. Clamp down and test...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

... did "cringe" a little...

An appropriate feeling.
I cringed too.

Think of someone removing or installing wheel bearings by *smacking* on the inner races.

I can just 'feel' the cringing here...

 

[YamadudeXS650C]

The purchase of a professional air compressor and complement of air tools was one of the best investments I've made.

 

[TimeMachine]

Note, after the "cringe" the sprocket did not loosen again for what thats worth

 

[xjwmx]

One item which I have found difficult to properly tighten to specs is the countershaft sprocket nut. Many of us have experienced the darn nuts loosening with use. There are assembly procedures used which include cleanliness, loctite, washer condition , etc but above all I found it difficult to "torque" the nut to the high setting which has a range. I kinda remember going for 75+ lbs torque. My thinking of this followed remembering disassembly of a too tight one. How did I loosen a too tight sprocket nut ? Reluctantly, an impact driver and 36mm socket.

If you have mags, you can put wood or a long wrench in there and let the swing arm block it on both sides to keep the front sprocket from turning.

For removal if needed those 1/2" electric impacts are all you'll ever need. I got one from HF and "gave" it to someone. It was about $50 and it was great. I replaced it with a Craftsman from a pawn shop for the same price and it is good but doesn't seem as strong. Sometimes hand impact is better sometimes electric impact is better. Sometimes the downward force from a hand impact is just what you need, but sometimes you do not want that.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

well that does tell you something TM ! that last quick turn did the trick but that's really hard on bearings I think putting a box end wrench on it and then smacking the wrench with a big hammer would be better next time.... who hasn't ran into a bolt or nut so tight a cheater bar will only sheer it off ? yet a quick fast impact with a box end wrench and hammer will some times do the trick..... it's hard on things obviously but ya do what ya gott'a do ! ....on my Ferguson tractor I was always doing that to get bolts loose or use the impact driver if it was really stubborn
she was always parked out in the weather and rusted up and you used wd-40 on anything you tried to undo but it usually took a hammer as well ! ethical ? no way.... proper procedure ? Not a chance, but it works ! where the proper thing to do would get the nut splitter or apply heat..... it saves time and frustration if you just "cringe" and do it !
....
Bob.........

 

[Bob Kelly III]

If you have mags, you can put wood or a long wrench in there and let the swing arm block it on both sides to keep the front sprocket from turning.

For removal if needed those 1/2" electric impacts are all you'll ever need. I got one from HF and "gave" it to someone. It was about $50 and it was great. I replaced it with a Craftsman from a pawn shop for the same price and it is good but doesn't seem as strong. Sometimes hand impact is better sometimes electric impact is better. Sometimes the downward force from a hand impact is just what you need, but sometimes you do not want that.

I've never had an electric impact driver I used a few in tire shops where I worked for Sears in Reno ,nv. and they couldn't remove a thing
so I never got one of my own... i've had air impacts all my life and used them all the time I especially loved my butterfly 3/8" palm impact driver with it I can strip a bike in minutes ! but ....I have no air compressor that I can use them with now..... maybe Santa will bring one !!!!
LOL
I have seen these 3/8" electric battery powered impact guns that look promising ! and have been thinking about getting one to see if their any good..... the satellite installer guy had 2 of them and he said he uses one all day long driving screws in concrete and on the brackets tightening bolts... he quickly convinced me that they are not what they used to be.....which was gutless wonders ! he didn't use a drill he used the impact on everything.... he had a chuck for it to drill and a switch to turn off the impact aspect of it....it was a Makieta.... I think. and those are expensive ! but evidently worth it !
....
Bob.......

 

[weekendrider]

gggGary another excellent guess but I wasn't thinking about the tappet nuts.
The two that I would definitely over tighten without a torque wrench are the drain plugs. 30 lbs. just doesn't seem enough. Oh it works, they don't leak. But put a box end or a rachet and socket in my hands and I want to apply two grunts and a fart to them. Anyone who has dealt with overtightened drain plugs knows it is a pita.