catastrophic headgasket failure with pics.

[malloym]

after 300 miles on my new engine build the headgasket blew. L.A cylinder sleeves installed by the same machine shop I always use. I'm running wiesco 80mm pistons. you can see near all the stud holes the gasket was leaking. these bigger sleeves go right to the edge of the locating dowels. I also noted the sleeve is just a hair lower than the jug. any ideas as to the cause of failure? I also want to add that after 100 miles the left inner stud kept coming loose, even after a proper retorque. I was getting compression out of the hole. another member on this site had the exact same problem but has failed to respond to me.

if you guys need any other photos or better pics just let me know.

also when the bike was running, everything seemed good, nice idle, plugs had a nice coffee color, good power, etc.. then the gasket let loose.

 

[XSLeo]

With the sleeve below the level of the jug I would expect the gasket to leak. Compression will leak past the primary sealing area, which is the steel in the head, the steel of the sleeve crushing the gasket between them.
With low sleeves the steel of the head crushes the gasket against the aluminum of the jugs.
I think replacing the jugs and refitting the sleeves so they stand proud of the jugs will work.
Leo

 

[malloym]

I really hope I don't have to replace the sleeves. they weren't cheap plus the 350.00 I paid to have them installed. I know the machine shop is going to try and blame this on me.

 

[DIRTY DOG]

The sleeves need to be flush with the jugs (haha I like juggs ) you can have the top milled down to make it flush and have copper head gasket made or use a thicker head gasket to make up for milling the jugs or may be a thicker base gasket to make up for milling the jugs.( a lot of people do this to lower compression ) I have done this on engines with warped heads and had to have the head milled, if not you have too much compression. You don't have to replace the jug/sleeves it cost less to mill the top down and use a thicker base gasket.hope this helps.

 

[cra-z1]

I had sleeves installed on a 900 Z1 by http://www.advancedsleeve.com who did a great job. After the sleeves were installed they did a slight skim cut to make sure the sleeves were flush to the cylinders. Also check your dowels to make sure they are not to long.

 

[5twins]

The sleeves are a press fit into the cylinders. I've read of guys placing their cylinders upright in an oven to cure fresh paint or something and coming back 20 minutes or so later to find the cylinders have slid down on the sleeves. You might try that. Block the cylinders so they can only drop a small amount. Some gentle tapping right after they come out of the oven may get them aligned properly for you if they don't slide on their own.

Or, block them so the sleeves can come up above the cylinders a little. Remove from the oven and bolt the head on snug to push the sleeves back in flush.

 

[xjwmx]

I think gggGary has put in sleeves using his oven.

 

[Airwolfie]

My sleeves came out when my mate cleaned the head with a hot water blaster. I simply took the sleeves, put them in plastic bags, left them in the freezer overnight. Then I took the casing, put it in the oven the next day at max temp, left it for two hours, took it out, and quickly dropped the sleeves in their respective holes. Makes a nice sound when they go in! Just make sure you place the casing on something that does not block the holes at the bottom so the sleeves can fall through. worked like a charm!

 

[cra-z1]

Problem is he stated the sleeves sit below the cylinders which means they are seated. He will need to skim to cylinders flush to the sleeves. If the machine shop fitted the new sleeves properly there would be about .005 interference fit to the cylinders. And should not fall out with hot water or when heated slightly. The stock fit is usually not as tight and do fall out with little heat. If you try to align the top of the sleeves with the top of the cylinders and they are not seated they will drop as soon as the engine warms which will open the gap to hot exhaust gases.

 

[5twins]

So you're saying there's a step at the top of the sleeve and the machine shop made it too deep in the jugs?

 

[angus67]

The sleeves are a press fit into the cylinders. I've read of guys placing their cylinders upright in an oven to cure fresh paint or something and coming back 20 minutes or so later to find the cylinders have slid down on the sleeves. You might try that. Block the cylinders so they can only drop a small amount. Some gentle tapping right after they come out of the oven may get them aligned properly for you if they don't slide on their own.

Or, block them so the sleeves can come up above the cylinders a little. Remove from the oven and bolt the head on snug to push the sleeves back in flush.

This I agree with. heat them up, drop the fin block a tiny bit, then tap the cylinders flush.
250* for 20 minutes is what I used to get my cylinders out..

 

[malloym]

So you're saying there's a step at the top of the sleeve and the machine shop made it too deep in the jugs?

the sleeves are recessed a tad into the jug. the depth is about the thickness of a sheet of paper.

now the question is. should I try and fix this or do I just get a stock jug and go back to normal

 

[DIRTY DOG]

Like I said just have the top of cyl.jugs milled if not too much then reinstall with a new gasket set if they only take off whats needed you should be ok with stock thickness gaskets don't over think it. It's no big problem.I have done a lot of engines over the years from stock to full race if the sleeves are tight then it's no big deal.if you want to go bact to stock I'll trade you a good stock cyl/jug and piston set for your's and I'll build
a big 277 eng.with them

 

[cra-z1]

Like Dirty Dog and I say, he will have to mill the jugs flush to the sleeves. Angus if you tap the sleeves flush to the cylinder they will drop as soon as you start the engine and it heats up. He said the sleeves are recessed about the thickness of a sheet of paper but that may just be enough to let gases get to the gasket and the inner stud to expand it and loosen it.

 

[member3480]

If I was you I would fine another set of jugs and take them back to the machine shop. Once you bore the jugs to fit the new sleeves its done and sounds like that was done. There is no fix as soon as motor heat up and pistons go bang they will be back in the same position. I seen this happen on race engines many times and if it really become loose it will slid down more.
Bottom line machine shop screwed up. When you do stock for stock sleeves yes you can put them in the freezer and the jug in the oven and they will slide together easy but you need to run a straight edge over them to make sure you don't have this problem. They were most likely flush when you put motor together.
GOOD LUCK with your build

 

[xjwmx]

^When are the jugs bored for the sleeves, and when can you do the hot/cold fitting instead of boring the jugs?

 

[angus67]

whoops....good point.

 

[Tim of DO THE TON]

Might think about a copper head gasket while you're at it as well. Might be a little more durable and you can re-use them.

 

[member3480]

When you bore jugs its because you are putting much larger pistons in stock cylinders. If you look at a stock set of jugs there is more material between rim and stud hole. His are bored all the way out to the holes. NOTHING WRONG with doing it this way but tolerance is the key and maybe when they put them in they were perfect and 300 miles of heat changed it. There also can be a possibility that they cracked inside under the heat because not enough material. Seen that before. That's why they make new kits with bigger jugs. I never done one that big on a XS650 but I have done the kits and much bigger material. Again take into account both may have not screwed up your 30 year old jugs just may have quit. Good thing is sleeves still useable and you only took out a gasket motors blowup and rods come out the bottom when this gets close to crank.

 

[DIRTY DOG]

I gess the big question is was the sleeves flush when you put the eng. together?
if not mill the top if they were then replace the jug and reinstall the sleeves
or just trade it all to me hahahaha lol