Clutch help

[pregrid]

Damn I hate to do this 'cause it seems like there's a thousand threads on this (I think I've read them all, too) but I'm gonna anyway. Before I take the clutch apart (and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to) I thought I'd pick y'all's brains. I didn't have this problem when I first finished the bike but it's gotten evil. Here's the deal:

When the bike is first fired and let's say it's only ridden 10 miles or so the clutch works fine. any more than that the damn thing starts to get wierd (read hard to find neutral even while rolling and starts to creep at stops). After 20 miles or so it is not disengaging AT ALL and to the point where it will kill the motor in gear at stops. Kinda scary. It's actually worse than it sounds. When I built the bike I got a good/used clutch assy from one of our members, worked great for a while. Got the one piece pushrod. New pivot assembly from MikesXS. New cable. Just double checked basic adjustment ant both the lever and the pivot.

I've got the hydraulic setup from Hugh but I'm pretty sure it's not gonna fix my problem. I know there's a ton of info out there that says these critters get harder to shift and find neutral as the bike warms up but this is extreme. Stupid extreme. In the next few days I'm gonna pull the right cover and take the clutch apart and I've got a few ideas of what to look for but I'm fishin' for any gems of wisdom that some of my brothers might have.

Fire away

Thanks, Dave

 

[racerdave]

I've read a little of those threads, and I want to add a ? to Pre's problem. Does this issue also occur to clutch's with new plates? It seems that the plates just don't spread enough when the clutch lever is pulled?

 

[pregrid]

I've read a little of those threads, and I want to add a ? to Pre's problem. Does this issue also occur to clutch's with new plates? It seems that the plates just don't spread enough when the clutch lever is pulled?

It seems to me that that's the crux of the 650's clutch problems. Not sure what the fix is tho.

 

[Phail]

As I have said in the other thread, I've been fighting this problem for months.

I have replaced the clutch pack, one piece push rod, HD springs, new thrust bearing, hydro clutch from HHB, I've even done the drill another hole to get more swing on the worm gear assembly. I'm waiting for a new worm gear assembly right now to see if that solves my problem.

I do know that you should adjust the clutch after you get the bike hot and that helps. Right now I'm about two full turn in on the adjuster so that I don't stall at stops or slow speed turns in the parking lot. But it's still pulling at stop signs and I can't find neutral unless I'm going about 15MPH. And I find it hard to downshift sometimes too.

I'll chime in again when I replace the worm gear.

 

[Crackers61]

Hi Guys,

I had a similar problem with my 78 special, hard to find neutral and sometimes hard to shift gear only when the bike has been running for a while. My solution was to change the engine oil, for the yam recommended stuff. The oil grade i think was 10/50w sae. Anyway it cost around $50 Aussie dollars for 5 litres, but sure did fix the problem.

Crackers.

P.S.
Didn't use the whole 5 litres.

 

[yamaman]

Try adjusting again, take good note of how much free play you have. Then take it for a ride, with the tools for adjustment. Ride till it happens again, then pull over and adjust while hot. Not saying that the hot adjustment is where it should be at (probably 1/2 way between). But then you will know just how much there is between hot and cold. Most everybody has struggled with this at some stage. You could set it up hot, then adjust on the perch for cold, as it heats up, readjust the perch to suit. Cheers

Posted via Mobile

 

[pregrid]

Try adjusting again, take good note of how much free play you have. Then take it for a ride, with the tools for adjustment. Ride till it happens again, then pull over and adjust while hot. Not saying that the hot adjustment is where it should be at (probably 1/2 way between). But then you will know just how much there is between hot and cold. Most everybody has struggled with this at some stage. You could set it up hot, then adjust on the perch for cold, as it heats up, readjust the perch to suit. Cheers

Posted via Mobile

Ah, there's the problem. I initially started out with the adjuster about halfway out, now it's damn near at the end of it's threads. Works perfect cold. I wonder if the cable is just too long. Actually hadn't thought of that. Have to check that today.

 

[XSLeo]

On your clutch adjustment, on the adjuster on the worm in the side cover it is often a bit tough to get right. It can take a fine feel to know just when the slack in the worm, rod and clutch pack is taken up. To tight and it slips, to loose and failure to disengage.
I find the point of resistance by turning the screw in/out several times to find just when things come together, then back of 1/8 turn, then lock it down.
Know at the lever if you need to adjust the cable out very far. then your cable is stretched out.
On mine I had trouble at first. I tried several things. I replaced the cable, some help. close inspection lead me to believe the worm was cracked. A cracked worm uses to much lever travel to take up the crack before the clutch starts to work.
Replaced the worm with a new one from Mike's. It has the long arm where the cable hooks on. It has two holes to hook the cable on. The outer hole lets the lever pull slightly easierand opens the clutch less. the inner holes pulls harder but opens the clutch farther.
Use the inner hole. The pull isn't that much easier. The extra clutch movement is more important.
Now with the new cable and worm, well lubed, adjusted as mentioned it is easy to find neutral, shifts fine.
It did slip a bit under hard accelleration in the higher gears, got worse with the 750 kit. A new Forodo clutch plate kit, Kibble White 70 lb springs And sanding the steel plates to remove burrs and clean off the discoloration and rough them up some, took care of the slippage.
Even with the stronger springs I can two finger pull the clutch. No slips, easy shifting, neutrals easy to find.
Leo

 

[XSLeo]

One thing I did try was to thread the hole in the left cover where the cable goes through and put an adjuster like goes in the lever perch in the hole. With this I loosened the lever cable all the way in, adjusted the worm screw, took most of the play out with the adjuster in the left cover, then fine tuned at the lever with that adjuster. This worked but a new cable worked better.
I have a pic. You need to use just a regular nut on the side cover no room for the big round nut that was on the adjuster.
Leo

 

[5twins]

I found the adjustment procedure as outlined in the manuals doesn't work very well. It leaves too much freeplay at the lever and you end up having to screw the lever adjuster way out. I use the adjustment procedure recommended in the "Minton Mods" article. He recommends removing the majority of the lever freeplay using the worm gear screw then finish with a slight adjustment at the lever. I dial lever freeplay down to about 1/2" to 3/4" with the worm gear screw then take it down to barely 1/8" using the lever adjuster. I set it on a cold motor. Set it this tight on a hot motor and when parts cool down and contract, the clutch may slip.

 

[pregrid]

Thanks fellers, these were the kind of answers I was looking for. Going to do some detectivin' before I pull the right side cover off.

'preciate it, Dave

 

[Crackers61]

Hi Pregrid,

Sorry for the delayed response, as i said in my earlier post, i just changed the oil and my clutch problems went away.

Crackers.

 

[Gheorghe]

I am having the same exact issue as you are having. I have adjusted the clutch when cold and it shifted "OK" but not perfect. I installed Hugh's hydraulic clutch and still no help. So with some research and tips from here I took the warm gear apart to clean and lube it. I was surprised to find that the inner part of the worm gear is made of plastic nylon shit. Well, I cleaned it and to my surprise I saw that it was cracked at the root of one of the threads in a helical pattern all the way though. Now I know exactly why it was ok when cold and shitty when hot. I think if i would have adjusted it when hot like it has been suggested the entire worm could have slipped. I just bought a new one from Mikes and I can't wait to see the difference.
I'd suggest to anyone that has this issue to take the worm apart and closely inspect it for cracks.

 

[scabber]

I Just make a minor adjustment at the clutch lever after it warms up. Problem solved .Thats why they have the adjuster at the lever.

 

[xjwmx]

I'm with the guy who said try a hot adjustment. After it quits working, pull over and screw the lever adjuster IN until it works. If you find it also works cold in that postion, then you're all set.

I've never had a clutch problem and I don't do anything special and I have a two-piece rod.

The sensible thing to me for the case adjuster is out just enough that there's no pressure from the adjuster on the push rod. A small space between the two in other words. Not a lot of slop, just to where you know the two don't contact when it's all at rest.

I don't see a big difference in what adjustment you do where:- both adjustments do the same thing in effect. But -- the purpose of the case adjustment is to provide that clearance I mentioned, so I treat it that way. The upper adjustment is to put the friction zone where you want it. I end up with about 3/32" of cable looseness in the lever.


Incidentally, the case adjustment should be done with the lever adjuster all the way in, or with the cable even disconnected.

 

[pregrid]

Update: Before I put Hugh's setup on I got a little more agressive on the worm gear adjustment. That is, I tightened it so there was no freeplay (ya know, back it off 1/8 turn, so no back-off). Seemed to help and did not slip in the higher gears. Upshifting or down shifting required very little movement at the clutch lever. After installing Hugh's setup it's been fine, although my longest ride has been only 10 miles or so. The old setup would have been acting up by then. A longer ride is coming up soon so a more comprehensive evaluation will be done then. Stay tuned.......................

 

[Phail]

For me, I have to set the worm gear adjustment to about one full turn in so the bike doesn't stall in gear. I have new everything now and this is still the case. I still can't get neutral when stopped. New 20/50 going in next week.

 

[nj1639]

Yeah, fresh proper oil, 12 mm wrench ,phillips head screwdriver and a ride should get ya where you need to be.

 

[Gheorghe]

For me, I have to set the worm gear adjustment to about one full turn in so the bike doesn't stall in gear. I have new everything now and this is still the case. I still can't get neutral when stopped. New 20/50 going in next week.

Did you install the new worm gear yet?

 

[Phail]

Yes I did. Same problem, but I think it's a little better now. I need to ride it more. Still cant find neutral very well.