Common Expected Upgrades during Refresh/Rebuild

[blitz134]

Hello everyone. Been a lurker on the site for a while, still don't have an XS yet, but I have been keeping my eyes out looking for the right bike. Seems like the popularity of these bikes has increased over the past couple of years. They don't last long on Craigslist and when a decent runner, that hasn't been chopped, comes up, they all are posted for $2k+. California prices, maybe? Not sure where else to look to find a good project bike.

I have owned a bike before (2007 Sportster), but don't have it anymore. I've always been into wrenching on things and do all of my own work where I can and I'm looking for a project bike to learn some new skills and get back into riding again. I have easy access to some basic metal working tools in my own garage and access to a welder, lathe, and mill in my buddy's shop not too far away.

So I've been looking for a later year Standard since I want the larger tank and like the lines and a couple other cosmetic features a little better. My goal for the bike would be to generally work through it from top to bottom, refresh/rebuild where necessary, update the paint, and simplify the bike overall. In the end, I want a reliable runner with some modernized parts that doesn't depart too far from the original XS style. I really like this bike from Counter Balance Cycles:http://counterbalancecycles.blogspot.com/p/1979-xs-650-tracker.html

Now...my real question. I'm trying to get a feel for what the "Common Sense" upgrades are and the "must rebuild/replace" components when approaching a project with these bikes. I know I'll need bars, rear coilover shocks, exhaust, seat, new tires. But what are the other less obvious, but "high value" upgrades that make sense to work into the bike given my goals? What parts of the bike do you consider must be rebuilt/replaced given the age and goals for improved reliability? I have been scouring these forums for quite some time, but it has been hard to focus my research...so just looking for a little help. I am aware of the Pamco and PMA, so I would likely do those...but just not sure what else...

 

[fredintoon]

- - - Now...my real question. I'm trying to get a feel for what the "Common Sense" upgrades are and the "must rebuild/replace" components when approaching a project with these bikes. I know I'll need bars, rear coilover shocks, exhaust, seat, new tires. But what are the other less obvious, but "high value" upgrades that make sense to work into the bike given my goals? What parts of the bike do you consider must be rebuilt/replaced given the age and goals for improved reliability? I have been scouring these forums for quite some time, but it has been hard to focus my research...so just looking for a little help. I am aware of the Pamco and PMA, so I would likely do those...but just not sure what else...

Hi blitz and welcome,
if you find a nice Special, go for it; a Standard tank will drop straight on.
You may or may not need new bars, depends on if you like the bars it came with.
Upgraded shocks are a good thought but not mandatory.
Exhaust & seat? Depends on condition. A good stock exhaust is a thing to cherish.
Tires, even if they look good, check their age. 5 years or older, buy new.
Chain & sprockets? (replace them as a set!) I prefer good quality o-ring chain, others use #50 agricultural chain at $20 the ten-foot pack. (We are both right)
Sprocket tooth count; 17/34 is stock, 17/31, 17/32 or 17/33 lessens the highway speed vibration. I'd avoid the optional 18T front, too many interference problems.
Brake hoses. Replace with new, betcha the PO didn't swap 'em out every 5 years like he should have. Upgrading to stainless lines is a good thought.
Brake option. Add a second front brake caliper or swap in a smaller diameter front master cylinder. Either will improve the stock system's wooden feel.
I'd say that while PMAs work and so do Pamcos if you install them right, they ain't cheap and there's nothing wrong with either of the stock systems that can't be fixed easier and cheaper than going the PMA/Pamco route.
As for a giant capacitor instead of a battery? Not on my bike!

 

[650Skull]

First of is to go through threw the electrics and pull all connecters and bullet connecters and grounds. Clean and check for damage/wear then dielectric grease components and reassemble. Grounds and contacts to be checked/cleaned and replaced.

Continuity check all wires to each connection and follow through and this will also check things like brake switches. All bar switches to be taken apart and clean all connections and reassemble.

Test Rotor/Stator/reg/rect and replace if needed. Even if your rotor is not putting out a full charge the bike can still run and electrical checked.

A popular misconception and advocated by some, is that the XS650 charging system is shit. It is used and advocated by many that it is mainly due to bad batteries, poor connections and maintenance that causes the charging system to brake down. Can be cheaper to replace a part, if others are ok), than putting in a whole new system, (PMA).



A new battery is best, even if the battery in the bike is good), and keep it fully charged. A lot of issues that are attributed to the carbs and other things are often caused by the battery not being in good condition.

A couple of links for getting ready and trouble shooting a new/old bike.
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390

Others will chime in for lots of other things to be done.

 

[XSLeo]

I agree with the Pamco But not so much the PMA. The cost is a bit to much when maintaining the stock system is easy and cheap.
On the engine they are pretty much good to go. If they need work then a fresh top end with new cam chain and front guide. New valve seals and lap the valves.
New pistons and rings if needed. Some like the big fin jug 750 kit Mike's sells.
That's a bit costly but works well.
On the frame, new neck bearings, the old loose balls are not the best. A tapered roller bearing is an easy upgrade.
Bronze swing arm bushes. Possibly a new swing arm pivot bolt, often the threaded part cracks. The threaded part is smaller than the rest. New ones are full size threads.
Upgrades to the front forks can vary from just fresh oil to new springs and cartridge emulators. I would start with the Minton Mods.
On the electrics the later standards came with a mechanical regulator and a separate rectifier. There are several options to upgrade to solid state units. A reg from a car and a 3 phase rec from Ebay are not very expensive. Upgrading from the round glass fuses to the modern blade type is a very good upgrade.
In the "Some Wiring Diagrams" thread found in the XS650 TECH section will help you with simplifying the wiring.
That should give you a few things to think about.
Leo

 

[650Skull]

And another thing i would recommend. ......................Check the Garage daily and bookmark threads that may be relevant to upcoming things to do to the bike.

There is a thread on "Voltage regulator swap" running now that will be of use to you later on.

 

[azman857]

Rear shocks. I'm using a set of Koni 7610 dial a ride. Did the new brass bushings, tapered steering bearings and wheel bearings. Holy smokes! it handles solid now. Stays in turns like its on rails. No wiggling. Replaced the fork springs too. With the Koni's no more bouncy bouncy. Recently replaced the glass tube fuses with modern blade fuses. Hopefully no more "sudden death" while riding.

 

[chizler62]

If you decide to go the "electrical upgrade" be warned that all the PMA's made for the XS650 other than, powerdynamo pictured, are of less quality than the OEM.

Buy cheap buy twice.

Most PMA's are of low quality and have poor fitment. The good news is that the people selling these seem to have developed incredible customer service skills, practice I suppose.

IMO if you purchase a "points model" pre80 I'd upgrade to a CDI ignition. Not many people enjoy screwing with points. I'd also look at the fuse block.
Other than that just be sure to get seals, brakes, chain, sprockets etc in good working order. The XS doesn't really lack a lot of engineering.

 

[aldo5468]

Check the fuse holders carefully - original ones are failure-prone; the clips that hold the fuses lose tension or break off completely. Many owners replace them totally with modern fuse holders that accept blade-type automotive fuses. There also is a way to replace the original clips for the glass cartridge-type fuses, the so-called "Radio Shack" fix. Either way, this is an electrical "must" to help ensure reliable voltage on all circuits.

 

[blitz134]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Got a little research to do on swing arm bushings, Minton mods for the fork, chain and sprockets (if reqd), headset bearings, brake lines, and general electrical improvements (regulators, fuse blocks).

Admittedly, I figured a good bit of the work would be solidifying and simplifying the electrical. I'll plan to stand down on the PMA for now. Also thanks for the powerdyno link, should I go that route I want good stuff. I have learned my lesson with my old Jeep, replacement parts tend to be of lower quality than stock these days. A good deal of effort has to be made to find good parts...a bit of a shame IMO.

What about typical engine issues? Sump filters, cam chain guides (?)...

 

[650performance]

I've heard nothing but good things about the PVL ignition. Talk with Mike at 650Central about brake systems, shock and fork mods. He has a good sense of balance between quality, reliability and price. He is also very knowledgeable about engine upgrades for both reliability and power.

 

[5twins]

Yes, sump filters usually have a hole in them, and front cam chain guides and cam chains usually need replacing. There's nothing inherently wrong with the parts (well, maybe the sump filter). Much of it comes from owner neglect.

The cam chain needs frequent checking/adjustment, like every 1000 miles. That was usually never done so the chains tend to get worn out prematurely. The front guide fails, the rubber strip coming unglued from the aluminum base. It's partly the 30+ year age of the part, may also be related to the adhesive Yamaha used. Apparently, it's not easy to bond rubber to aluminum permanently. As a comparison, the SR500 uses the same cam chain but has a front guide made of rubber/stamped steel. They never fall apart.

I feel the sump filter is just poorly designed. It has a weak spot, an area that juts out the side on an otherwise rectangular shaped filter element. Unfortunately, that weak spot mounts right next to the oil feed hole where pressure is probably about the highest. Many reinforce the filter here. Many of us patch the torn ones using JB Weld. You can avoid the tearing in the first place if you ride easy for the first few miles until the oil warms and thins a bit.

 

[Leebo]

You have tried all of the PMA kits that's available ?
I have a HHB PMA it wasn't cheap and it seems fairly robust.

View attachment 53624

If you decide to go the "electrical upgrade" be warned that all the PMA's made for the XS650 other than, powerdynamo pictured, are of less quality than the OEM.

Buy cheap buy twice.

Most PMA's are of low quality and have poor fitment. The good news is that the people selling these seem to have developed incredible customer service skills, practice I suppose.

IMO if you purchase a "points model" pre80 I'd upgrade to a CDI ignition. Not many people enjoy screwing with points. I'd also look at the fuse block.
Other than that just be sure to get seals, brakes, chain, sprockets etc in good working order. The XS doesn't really lack a lot of engineering.

 

[blitz134]

Sorry...but let's not start a PMA arguement.

so it seems if I need to go in the engine for a top end rebuild then I'll need a new cam chain and likely the guide. I need to read up on top end rebuilds to see how extensive. I read somewhere that these engines might need top end work every 10k...is that right?

I need to start to work through prices, but all of this seems reasonable...

 

[weekendrider]

I read somewhere that these engines might need top end work every 10k...is that right?

imho. No.

 

[5twins]

You shouldn't need another topend that soon. I don't think 40 to 50K is unreasonable to expect from a properly done job. If you get one that has never been touched then yes, expect to have to go in there. It's mostly an age thing, like I said. Besides the cam chain stuff, there are rubber valve guide seals that many times are in need of replacement. You can usually ride the bike a season or two before tearing into it. That gives you a chance to sort all its little problems and properly diagnose the bigger ones.

We just completed a topend on a local guy's bike. It cost him about $200 in parts. That was for rings, cam chain, front guide, gaskets, and elephants foot valve adjuster screws. If it needed boring, that would have bumped the cost another $150 or so.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Top end work every 10K miles is complete nonsense! These bikes will easily go 50K miles or more before top end work needed, if they are maintained properly.

But that's the rub. Most of these bikes were not serviced regularly. Infrequent oil changes, filters not cleaned, camchains not adjusted, attempts to keep charging dead batteries, etc. etc. Installing too large carb jets, resulting in carboned up cylinder heads and pistons, and soon the valves won't seal and down goes compression.

Over the past few years, I've put on over 17,000 kms (10,000 miles), since I did a top end re-build. My engine still starts and runs the same as it did the day after I competed the top end work. The key is to do regular maintenance, and keep the engine/carbs/electrical systems tuned properly.

 

[5twins]

Yes, this was an old engine design even when new. It requires more maintenance and at more frequent intervals than a newer or more modern designed engine. Since it wasn't very expensive new, and even cheaper used, many first time riders bought them. Most of them had no clue about proper maintenance.

You say you're into wrenching and learning some new skills. The 650 is the perfect bike for that. When choosing an old bike to own, it helps to pick one with a long production run, high production numbers, a faithful following, and lots of available info/support. The 650 meets all of those requirements.

 

[Brassneck]

Hey Blitz,

Welcome...if you like the counterbalance cycle tracker, I say forget finding a project bike, and pick up Tom's that he just finished and is selling...up in the bay area, I think.

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39129&page=5&highlight=street+tracker

 

[FLEA]

Hi blitz and welcome,
if you find a nice Special, go for it; a Standard tank will drop straight on.
You may or may not need new bars, depends on if you like the bars it came with.
Upgraded shocks are a good thought but not mandatory.
Exhaust & seat? Depends on condition. A good stock exhaust is a thing to cherish.
Tires, even if they look good, check their age. 5 years or older, buy new.
Chain & sprockets? (replace them as a set!) I prefer good quality o-ring chain, others use #50 agricultural chain at $20 the ten-foot pack. (We are both right)
Sprocket tooth count; 17/34 is stock, 17/31, 17/32 or 17/33 lessens the highway speed vibration. I'd avoid the optional 18T front, too many interference problems.
Brake hoses. Replace with new, betcha the PO didn't swap 'em out every 5 years like he should have. Upgrading to stainless lines is a good thought.
Brake option. Add a second front brake caliper or swap in a smaller diameter front master cylinder. Either will improve the stock system's wooden feel.
I'd say that while PMAs work and so do Pamcos if you install them right, they ain't cheap and there's nothing wrong with either of the stock systems that can't be fixed easier and cheaper than going the PMA/Pamco route.
As for a giant capacitor instead of a battery? Not on my bike!

use a proper bike chain not a agricultural chain,though cheaper they are not designed to do the job of a motorcycle chain and are a good way to finish up with smashed cases or worse and will stretch faster.worth every penny to buy good quality,also if you use 18 tooth front sprocket best not to use o ring chain,will rub on shaft but conventsional chains not to bad but o rings better on the 17 tooth sprocket