Hi 2Many,
OK, that's a way better method.
I guess I spent too many years designing complicated stuff to think of doing it the easy way.
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First XS650 Build, What to Look For
- Thread starter SlowMaintenance
- Start date
Hi 2Many,
OK, that's a way better method.
I guess I spent too many years designing complicated stuff to think of doing it the easy way.
Well, don't lose that edge, Fred. I've a future project, for sometime later, that's really going to need your help and that of experienced tool/fixture machinists.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Freedom!!
Finally got these darn things apart thanks to the tip from 2M. As it turns out, you can use two of the four small bolts for the top of the head cover. They fit the threads on that cylinder and are long enough to work as a leverage point. I didn't have any flat bar stock so I used two of my socket wrenches. Plug one under that points cover and brace it on the bolt, few lights taps with a rubber mallet and repeat on the other side. After about 3 back and forths I could feel the movement. Checked the gap and sure enough, separation! Kept going until it was all the way apart. Unfortunately, having applied the sealant to both sides of the gasket was an awful idea, as I've now shredded it. If anybody has a spare gasket, I've got cash for you.
Can't wait to try and scrape this off lol.
And here's the little screw that caused it all. Turned out so god damn easy too, can't believe I wasn't able to get at it with the drill bit
Ah well...live and learn I suppose. Once I source a new gasket I'll button it back up and move on to the PMA and Pamco. Hardtail arrived at the local shop and both it and the frame are off to the welders. Will probably be a week before I hear from them if the past is any indication of the future, so I've got a few days to get this engine taken care of.
Thanks again for the help and suggestions, couldn't do it without you guys. If that tip isn't already stickied somewhere, maybe the mods might like to do so? Super helpful for anyone trying to get those cases apart, whether it be due to rust or improper torquing lol.
Finally got these darn things apart thanks to the tip from 2M. As it turns out, you can use two of the four small bolts for the top of the head cover. They fit the threads on that cylinder and are long enough to work as a leverage point. I didn't have any flat bar stock so I used two of my socket wrenches. Plug one under that points cover and brace it on the bolt, few lights taps with a rubber mallet and repeat on the other side. After about 3 back and forths I could feel the movement. Checked the gap and sure enough, separation! Kept going until it was all the way apart. Unfortunately, having applied the sealant to both sides of the gasket was an awful idea, as I've now shredded it. If anybody has a spare gasket, I've got cash for you.
Can't wait to try and scrape this off lol.
And here's the little screw that caused it all. Turned out so god damn easy too, can't believe I wasn't able to get at it with the drill bit
Ah well...live and learn I suppose. Once I source a new gasket I'll button it back up and move on to the PMA and Pamco. Hardtail arrived at the local shop and both it and the frame are off to the welders. Will probably be a week before I hear from them if the past is any indication of the future, so I've got a few days to get this engine taken care of.
Thanks again for the help and suggestions, couldn't do it without you guys. If that tip isn't already stickied somewhere, maybe the mods might like to do so? Super helpful for anyone trying to get those cases apart, whether it be due to rust or improper torquing lol.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Anybody got a recommendation on where to buy just the head gasket? Mine was from the athena gasket set and it was damn good, but idk where to buy just that one gasket and know that it's a good one.
Probably best to ask some type of a vendor, message Gary at Hoos Racing. Goes by hooser on here.
theDQG
XS650 Addict
2M is the man of the hour. You owe him a cold one.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Wrote to Gary and he hooked me up with one of his gaskets. Order is placed. In the mean time, I think I'll take the pistons off the connecting rods and put them in the cylinders so I can install a bit easier. Worried about bending that holding clip as I remove it, but I'll try to be as delicate as possible.
And yes 2M did indeed save the day, 2M, if you're going to the chopoff in August, drinks on me! Assuming I can wrap this build up by then lol
And yes 2M did indeed save the day, 2M, if you're going to the chopoff in August, drinks on me! Assuming I can wrap this build up by then lol
Oh, yeah, that's another one I'd love to attend. A lot of custom XS's in one area, concentrated XS650 creativity. This ol' man could easily overdose...
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
UPDATED: Added the pics
Alright guys, after shredding my finger tips peeling up that gasket which appears to be made of a bendable cheese grater, and a few fingers cuts from slipping razor blades, the gasket surfaces are one again clean! I put a little carb cleaner on a fresh rag and gave them the once over as well to really get them residue free. Luckily my gf was free this weekend to help me compress the piston rings with the use of some makeshift tools and we finally got this thing back to where it was before! (well, almost).
Having trouble with imgur right now so I'll have to post the pics later, but I'm going to try again with this gasket sealant and wanted to know which side (if it matters) the sealant should go on. The easiest way would be to put it on the top, thus adhering it to the rocker cover. If that's the way to go, I'll do this tonight. I just didn't want to seal it up only to have to remove it yet again. I've got the proper brass washers for the outer head bolts, and I checked to make sure the cam chain guide was centered. I don't believe there's anything else to do now but seal these things back up. If so, gonna do it tonight and be done with it. Just need a new bolt for the one I broke off.
Alright guys, after shredding my finger tips peeling up that gasket which appears to be made of a bendable cheese grater, and a few fingers cuts from slipping razor blades, the gasket surfaces are one again clean! I put a little carb cleaner on a fresh rag and gave them the once over as well to really get them residue free. Luckily my gf was free this weekend to help me compress the piston rings with the use of some makeshift tools and we finally got this thing back to where it was before! (well, almost).
Having trouble with imgur right now so I'll have to post the pics later, but I'm going to try again with this gasket sealant and wanted to know which side (if it matters) the sealant should go on. The easiest way would be to put it on the top, thus adhering it to the rocker cover. If that's the way to go, I'll do this tonight. I just didn't want to seal it up only to have to remove it yet again. I've got the proper brass washers for the outer head bolts, and I checked to make sure the cam chain guide was centered. I don't believe there's anything else to do now but seal these things back up. If so, gonna do it tonight and be done with it. Just need a new bolt for the one I broke off.
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If you're talking about the top cover which uses no gasket, only sealer, it really doesn't matter. Put it on one side or the other, whichever is easier to apply it to. You only need it on one side, not both. The bolt you broke is just a standard M6 x 35 according to the parts diagrams. Don't use any more than about 7 ft/lbs of torque on it.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Oops, good call. I said rocker cover but I meant the top of the cylinder section. The one which contains the valves and exhaust ports. Wasn't sure which side of that head gasket should get the sealant, as it seems like having done both sides the first time was the wrong way to go about it.
No, both sides is correct. Just don't slather it on like you're cooking ribs, lol. You're trying to insure the head gasket seals so you must do both sides. Doing one side would only be accomplishing half the job. As I may have mentioned earlier, I no longer apply it to the gasket, I put it on the metal surfaces, top of the cylinders and bottom of the head. That way I can better keep it out of that groove machined around the outer edge .....
Squeeze some sealant out of the tube onto a toothpick or an awl and use that to "draw" a thin line of sealer on the surfaces. You only need/want about a 1/8" wide bead at most.
Squeeze some sealant out of the tube onto a toothpick or an awl and use that to "draw" a thin line of sealer on the surfaces. You only need/want about a 1/8" wide bead at most.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
One question. On the larger bolt holes (where the locating dowels fit into) there are these cuts out areas. Is this normal?
Here's some more on those mysterious clearance notches in the sleeve's flange:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39303
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39303
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
I took a look through this thread but can't say for certain what the official takeaway was. Is this the "cracked cylinder sleeve" people are talking about in there? It doesn't appear to effect the inside of the cylinder but I could be wrong, it's also very uniform and appears on both sides.
That issue aside though, I did make some more progress last night.
Cam back in it's home
Bearings tapped in as far as they'll go on both sides with use of a large socket
Again I ran into the issue of not being able to get the indicator mark on the cam to sit perfectly at the top position. Is this a problem?
Unfortunately this also results in a slight offset with the locating pin hole on the advance unit side of the cam (right side of engine)
Not sure how big of a deal those factors are, but I'm going to be running the electronic advance unit if that matters.
From here it's on to the PMA install. Wish me luck.
PS: Does anyone have tips for getting the oil seals out of the advance and points housing units? Mine are stuck in there real good and I can't seem to break them free. Same goes for the oil seal that my local shop installed in the starter motor hole. Need to get that out so I can get the freeze plug in.
Is that a new cam chain or the used original? If it's used, it's probably stretched and that's why you can't get the cam notch lined up perfectly. Your valve and ignition timing won't be exactly at spec. Whether it's off enough to effect the way it runs, I can't say. There's lots of these running around with stretched chains and they seem to keep on going.
Can I ask why you're replacing the points and advance housing seals? Were they leaking or do you just have them and figure WTF? The new seals are supposedly improved, with a triple sealing lip, but reports on them aren't all good. You'll notice the seal is pressed into the housing as deep as possible without hanging out the back. The ends of the cam that the seals ride on don't stick out much so the seals have to be set in deep like that. The problem with the new "improved" seal is that they added those extra seal lips on the outside. Sometimes they don't even make it onto the cam stub so are no help. The new seals can be leakers.
If the old seals weren't leaking, I wouldn't replace them. It is something you can do any time in the future with the motor in the frame if need be. If they had minor leaks, cleaning the end of the cam where the seal lip rides by buffing it with a Scotchbrite pad will often cure the leak.
But, if you must replace them, it is pretty easy, one of the easiest seal replacements on the bike I think. Cut two small squares of plywood, one big enough to fit over the front of the housing, one big enough to fit over the seal and it's bore on the back. Find a suitably sized socket that just fits the seal. For removal, "stack" the larger piece of plywood against the outside of the housing and the socket against the old seal on the back. Place this "stack" in a vice and slowly tighten it. The socket will press the old seal out and into the housing. For install, use the large plywood square again on the front and place the new seal and smaller plywood square on the back. Into the vice again and slowly tighten. The little plywood square will press the new seal into the back of the housing. Leave it out a hair more than flush, so you can see the rounded edge on the seal. Remember, that new triple lip needs all the help it can get to make it onto the cam stub.
Can I ask why you're replacing the points and advance housing seals? Were they leaking or do you just have them and figure WTF? The new seals are supposedly improved, with a triple sealing lip, but reports on them aren't all good. You'll notice the seal is pressed into the housing as deep as possible without hanging out the back. The ends of the cam that the seals ride on don't stick out much so the seals have to be set in deep like that. The problem with the new "improved" seal is that they added those extra seal lips on the outside. Sometimes they don't even make it onto the cam stub so are no help. The new seals can be leakers.
If the old seals weren't leaking, I wouldn't replace them. It is something you can do any time in the future with the motor in the frame if need be. If they had minor leaks, cleaning the end of the cam where the seal lip rides by buffing it with a Scotchbrite pad will often cure the leak.
But, if you must replace them, it is pretty easy, one of the easiest seal replacements on the bike I think. Cut two small squares of plywood, one big enough to fit over the front of the housing, one big enough to fit over the seal and it's bore on the back. Find a suitably sized socket that just fits the seal. For removal, "stack" the larger piece of plywood against the outside of the housing and the socket against the old seal on the back. Place this "stack" in a vice and slowly tighten it. The socket will press the old seal out and into the housing. For install, use the large plywood square again on the front and place the new seal and smaller plywood square on the back. Into the vice again and slowly tighten. The little plywood square will press the new seal into the back of the housing. Leave it out a hair more than flush, so you can see the rounded edge on the seal. Remember, that new triple lip needs all the help it can get to make it onto the cam stub.
SlowMaintenance
'76 XS650 Chopper
Cam chain was not replaced during the rebuild process, so it likely is stretched a bit. We will see how it goes.
As for the seals, I just had them and figured wtf. I'll look tonight at the ones that are currently in there and see what condition they're in. If they look ok I'll just leave them for now and let it be.
If not, I'll try this push out method on both those and the starter motor one. Thanks!
As for the seals, I just had them and figured wtf. I'll look tonight at the ones that are currently in there and see what condition they're in. If they look ok I'll just leave them for now and let it be.
If not, I'll try this push out method on both those and the starter motor one. Thanks!
I didn't use that method with the starter seal. I think I just drove it out with a big socket or piece of pipe. When you rebuild one of these, you pretty much always replace the cam chain. I guess you see why now, lol.
