Harley single fire 3 ohm coil for 277 Pamco?

[rwingsfan]

Trying to figure out if you can use a Harley single fire 3 ohm coil with a 277 Pamco ignition. I am sick of these green monster coils. Had a message into Hughs Handbuilt and Pamco Pete, but have yet to recieve a answer. If you can the single fire coils have three posts, one + and two -. I assume you put switched power to the + and the signal wires to the -? What'cha think?

 

[Punkskalar]

Trying to figure out if you can use a Harley single fire 3 ohm coil with a 277 Pamco ignition. I am sick of these green monster coils. Had a message into Hughs Handbuilt and Pamco Pete, but have yet to recieve a answer. If you can the single fire coils have three posts, one + and two -. I assume you put switched power to the + and the signal wires to the -? What'cha think?

I must have missed your question, sorry Tony.

I use harley coils on my bike. I use single fire coils, but what you are talking about sounds like a twin output coil that utilizes 3 wires? 1 Hot, and 2 Signal correct?

If so, then yeah, you should be ok to use that coil as long as you have 2 spark plug wires coming off of it. Otherwise you'll want seperate coils for the rephase.

 

[pamcopete]

rwingsfan,

Yes, those coils should work. The only problem is if you fry one of them you have to replace both, and they are not cheap.

 

[rwingsfan]

Yeah, I want to use one 1 single fire coil (with two plug wires) instead of 2 green monsters. I have chased down some of my problem and it appears to be with the monster coils. When I hook up the signal wires I have a severe voltage drop, sometimes with just one hooked up and sometimes with two, sometimes if I move the signal wires it will work for a minute, then it will drop. Unhook them and all is good. I have completely started over with the wiring, no wonder this thing did not run too well. Still have not even gottn back to the charging issue. I need it to run decent before tackling that. I am at my wits end for sure.

I must have missed your question, sorry Tony.

I use harley coils on my bike. I use single fire coils, but what you are talking about sounds like a twin output coil that utilizes 3 wires? 1 Hot, and 2 Signal correct?

If so, then yeah, you should be ok to use that coil as long as you have 2 spark plug wires coming off of it. Otherwise you'll want seperate coils for the rephase.

 

[rwingsfan]

Pete, don't want to use the single-single fire coils, but the single fire coil that has two towers and three posts, basically two coils in one. They run about $45 for a 3 ohm Accel.

rwingsfan,

Yes, those coils should work. The only problem is if you fry one of them you have to replace both, and they are not cheap.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Yes, Pete and I have talked about this before and he confirmed that yes you could if it was within the ohm range. However, he seems to think it's cheaper to buy two new green towers.... the single green towers cost almost as much as my harley dual tower. This way it'll be cleaner.

 

[rwingsfan]

Thanks, I saw your post when I did a search, but it was still unclear. Here is a 3ohm Accel single fire dual tower coil on ebay for $45
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260753205801&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT I have two green monsters and they not only look bad, but where the signal (green) wires hook, they get a bad connection, at least for me. Did you end up using a Harley coil?

Yes, Pete and I have talked about this before and he confirmed that yes you could if it was within the ohm range. However, he seems to think it's cheaper to buy two new green towers.... the single green towers cost almost as much as my harley dual tower. This way it'll be cleaner.

 

[BigJimmyW13]

I haven't finished up rebuilding the engine yet, but yeah I have one ready!

 

[pamcopete]

Yeah, I want to use one 1 single fire coil (with two plug wires) instead of 2 green monsters. I have chased down some of my problem and it appears to be with the monster coils. When I hook up the signal wires I have a severe voltage drop, sometimes with just one hooked up and sometimes with two, sometimes if I move the signal wires it will work for a minute, then it will drop. Unhook them and all is good. I have completely started over with the wiring, no wonder this thing did not run too well. Still have not even gottn back to the charging issue. I need it to run decent before tackling that. I am at my wits end for sure.

If you are referring to the green wire from the PAMCO as the "signal wire", then it is NORMAL for it to go low when it turns the coil on. The transistor GROUNDS the coil. It does not provide the power. The power comes from the +12 connected to the coil. Also, only one coil at a time will "go low" when its transistor turns on. The transistor is on in between the 90 degree space between the magnets. So, of you are using the fact that the signal wire goes low to replace the coils, look elsewhere. Like, if the voltage going to the coil "goes low" then that is the problem, not the coils.

Here is a test that you can do to verify that the PAMCO and the coils are working properly without even starting the engine:

1. Use a voltmeter and check for battery voltage on each of the red/white wires with the key and kill switch are turned on.
2. The coils have to have the spark plug wires connected to a spark plug at all times.
3. To test for spark, connect one of the spark plug wires to a spark plug that is grounded to the engine.

To test for spark without having to turn the engine over, do this procedure:
1. Remove the PAMCO rotor.
2. Remove the locating pin in the advance rod.
3. Reinstall the rotor, but without the pin.
4. Replace the nut holding the rotor on loosely. This will allow you to spin the rotor to produce a spark without having to turn the engine over.
5. Connect one of the spark plug wires to a spark plug that is grounded to the engine, but not installed in the engine.
6. Make sure that the other spark plug wire is connected to a spark plug in the engine.
7. Turn on the ignition switch and the kill switch.
8. Spin the rotor while looking at the gap in the spark plug for a spark.
9. Turn off the kill switch and the ignition switch.

 

[rwingsfan]

Pete, first off thank you for replying. I am a bit of a dummy when it comes to wiring, but have gotten a lot better. Ok want to be sure I follow you. First off know that I have no original wiring left, it has all been replaced. Anyway I have been fighting some things from multiple fronts but want to be clear first on a few items. I have been going through the different curcuits looking for voltage drop. I am wired from battery to a spade fuse box. I have seperate tail, headlight and ignition curcuits. This has served me well in the past and is working quite well on my 1975B. I had been testing each individualy to look for drop. Never any drop with the tail cuircuit. Now with the headlight it drops pretty good and that puzzles me becuase on my 75 everything comes on with the switch and there is no drop. BTW I have voltmeters installed on both bikes and also check manually with a voltmeter. I seem to have constant 12V to the coils as nothing seems to affect that. I was calling the green wire on the Pamco a "signal" wire only because I don't know the correct terminology. I assumed it signals the coil when to energize the pamco. I was suprised when I hook up the green wires that my entire voltage drops severly when switched on, I did not think it would do that. And it is variable how it does it, one time you will turn it on and for a second it will show 12v, then turn off and then on it will show much less. On my points bike it stay a steady 12v except when charging and I was using it as a comparison. I guess I'll have to get my carbs back together and start this back up to see where I am, maybe I am making things harder then they need to be This all started becuse I could not get it to charge and it seemed to suddenly not run very well. Thanks again for listening to my windy tale of woe.

 

[rwingsfan]

BTW Pete I will do the spark test later today.

 

[pamcopete]

rwingsfan,

Well, again. The transistors in the PAMCO are only on in between the 90 degrees of the two magnets when the engine is running. The rest of the time the transistors are off and you will see 12V on the green wire, so it is kinda random when testing because sometimes the PAMCO will "wake up" with the transistors on and sometimes with the transistors off. When the transistor is on, the voltage on the green wire will drop to about 1 to1.5 volts. That is normal. It is also possible for the PAMCO to "wake up" with both transistors on and both green wire voltages will be low. They automatically sync themselves once the engine starts because the appropriate magnet will turn the transistors off at the correct time.

If your entire voltage drops noticably when you turn on the ignition, that is because the transitor(s) just happen to wake up in the on condition and you have a bad connection somewhere in your wiring that causes a voltage drop due to the current being drawn by the PAMCO. To verify that it is not due to shorted coils, do the coil test above.
So, I would dig deeper into your electrical system before trashing those expensive coils. Try the test above to see if they are working.

Another tip. The battery voltage will drop a bit even with everything working properly. I have a volt meter on my '81/H and it is not unusual to see the battery voltage drop to 11.5 volts when I turn the key on, so don't expect full battery voltage when you turn things on.

PS: While doing these tests, do not leave power on to the coils for more than a minute or so as they will overheat and self destruct, along with the PAMCO. Take a break once in awhile to let things cool down.

 

[rwingsfan]

Thanks Pete. This thing is kicking my butt. I don't plan on trashing the geen coils at all, but might use them on something where looks is not as critical. I remember reading somehwere though that these coils need something to get better contact ? When I got this kit from Mikes, it did not have one wire boot or any of the screws for the coils. Does it need anything between the screw and the eyelet on my wiring? If you don't mind I will report back after performing the test above.

 

[sreimer]

Yes, I'm running a dynotech coil on one of mine currently.

BTW. I really think it stinks that the best way to get hold of pamco Pete is by posting something on the threads. Its bullshit!

You also may want to replace the cheap wire used on the ignition with a good quality copper wire as the cheap wire that comes installed on it breaks easily.

 

[Punkskalar]

BTW. I really think it stinks that the best way to get hold of pamco Pete is by posting something on the threads. Its bullshit!

I'm gonna go ahead and step in here. Ever stop to think that Pete (and ALOT of us small shops for that matter) are a one man show and don't check our email every breathing moment of the day? Pete is the MAN when it comes to getting these bikes to fire, and offers excellent customer service. If you aren't happy with what you get here from Pete (or any other vendor for that matter), you might as well start buying all your crap from Ebay, lets see the customer service you get there.

Not that I don't understand your frustrations, I've had them myself as well. BUT, emails often get filtered to spam, or just simply get lost in the mix. I answer about 50-100 emails a day, and I don't do nearly the business that Pete does. So please take that into account when buying parts for a Niche' bike. I've had nothing but EXCELLENT customer service from Pete, but I don't think Cussing at him is gonna make anyone more inclined to help you out.


Rant off

 

[pamcopete]

sreimer,

Wow...don't know how I managed to piss you off when I don't even know you! What is your problem?

The wire I use is top of the line 22 gage Belden stranded 7 X 30 copper. The wire is tinned to protect the copper from corrosion and to make soldering easier. Tinned wire is more expensive that just straight copper, so the color you saw is the tinning, or solder that is applied to the bare copper. So, in future, when you see wire that is the color of copper, you will know that it is cheaper and subject to corrosion.

Using a heavier gage wire would be counter productive because the vibration from the engine would then be transmitted to the PC board.

Having people contact me here is use full because it gives every one an opportunity to perhaps learn something from others experience with the PAMCO, like this discussion about wire, and we can also hear people vent if they are having a problem with their PAMCO, but you can always contact me at:

pete@yamahaxs650.com

Hope the rest of your day goes better.

PS: If you want some information about Belden, then click here for a complete story. Perhaps you could send them an Email and tell them their wire is cheap crap.

Founded by Joseph C. Belden in Chicago, in 1902, the Belden name has become synonymous with quality and innovation.

http://investor.belden.com/history.cfm

 

[650Skull]

Yes, I'm running a dynotech coil on one of mine currently.

BTW. I really think it stinks that the best way to get hold of pamco Pete is by posting something on the threads. Its bullshit!

You also may want to replace the cheap wire used on the ignition with a good quality copper wire as the cheap wire that comes installed on it breaks easily.

I am going to chip in as well.

sreimer. Pamcopete is one of the gentlemen of this world and they are a dying breed. His knowledge and selfless commitment to this site, (and others he is involved with), and the XS in general is without peer, Pete will replace parts for free, (when it is the fault of the buyer in the first place), without question and will bend over backwards to help out members even when they abuse him. Considering you have only been here for a few weeks you would not know any of the above, i suggest you click onto Pamcopete and read up on his posts, (that should take a year or 2), and maybe you will humble your self with an apology to Pete for your stupid outburst

 

[BigJimmyW13]

Yes, I'm running a dynotech coil on one of mine currently.

BTW. I really think it stinks that the best way to get hold of pamco Pete is by posting something on the threads. Its bullshit!

You also may want to replace the cheap wire used on the ignition with a good quality copper wire as the cheap wire that comes installed on it breaks easily.

You've already heard it twice from Skull and Hugh, but I'm going to chip in as well and make it a third person. Dude, you're out of line. Like it has been said before; who's to say your email didn't get slated as spam? I mean there was a little while where I had emailed Pete a cpl times and didn't get a response right away. I just assumed he didn't get them. So I got on here and I got ahold of Pete. Whenever I did he was more than willing to help. He has even gone as far as to call me whenever I was having some issues that I thought possibly wiring related and walked me through some troubleshooting. It would be best that you apologize to the man. Because he is anything other than Bullshit.

 

[rwingsfan]

Wow, I am unsure as to what brought this on. I have always had prompt response to questions from Pete. This is not the first Pamco I have had and not the first questions to him I have asked. I burned my very first Pamco up due to my stupidity a couple years ago and Pete replaced it, no questions asked. Try to get THAT somewhere else. Now maybe in my original post it sounded as though I was frustrated that I had not got a response, well that was not the case. I knew that Punkskalar and PamcoPete would return my inquiries. Anyway thanks again Pete and Hugh and as soon as I get a chance I will do the tests and see where I am at. Electrical phantoms are frustrating though .

Yes, I'm running a dynotech coil on one of mine currently.

BTW. I really think it stinks that the best way to get hold of pamco Pete is by posting something on the threads. Its bullshit!

You also may want to replace the cheap wire used on the ignition with a good quality copper wire as the cheap wire that comes installed on it breaks easily.

 

[rwingsfan]

Pete, ok I tested eveything and all seems in order as far as working goes. I have just the ignition hooked up tonight and fired her up. At first I had some flamey backfire out of the right pipe. Shut it off. Waited a minute and tried again. Started up and stayed running long enough to set the idle up just a bit and it will sit and idle now. I have put on another set of carbs that came from a perfect running bike that had pods and open pipes so the bikes are similar. Anything off of idle is very sluggish and even sounds almost muted, seems to get better a bit upon higher rev, but still way off. I checked the advance and it snaps back like you show in your video. Hugh originally set the timing, could this maybe have gotten off? At first I thought carbs, but it has done this with two different sets of carbs, so I don't think that is the problem. Possible timing problem? Not advancing? Maybe you or Hugh can chime in with some direction. Thanks

If you are referring to the green wire from the PAMCO as the "signal wire", then it is NORMAL for it to go low when it turns the coil on. The transistor GROUNDS the coil. It does not provide the power. The power comes from the +12 connected to the coil. Also, only one coil at a time will "go low" when its transistor turns on. The transistor is on in between the 90 degree space between the magnets. So, of you are using the fact that the signal wire goes low to replace the coils, look elsewhere. Like, if the voltage going to the coil "goes low" then that is the problem, not the coils.

Here is a test that you can do to verify that the PAMCO and the coils are working properly without even starting the engine:

1. Use a voltmeter and check for battery voltage on each of the red/white wires with the key and kill switch are turned on.
2. The coils have to have the spark plug wires connected to a spark plug at all times.
3. To test for spark, connect one of the spark plug wires to a spark plug that is grounded to the engine.

To test for spark without having to turn the engine over, do this procedure:
1. Remove the PAMCO rotor.
2. Remove the locating pin in the advance rod.
3. Reinstall the rotor, but without the pin.
4. Replace the nut holding the rotor on loosely. This will allow you to spin the rotor to produce a spark without having to turn the engine over.
5. Connect one of the spark plug wires to a spark plug that is grounded to the engine, but not installed in the engine.
6. Make sure that the other spark plug wire is connected to a spark plug in the engine.
7. Turn on the ignition switch and the kill switch.
8. Spin the rotor while looking at the gap in the spark plug for a spark.
9. Turn off the kill switch and the ignition switch.