Head Stuck to Jugs

[XSWestgate]

Now I wish this were the other interpretation of that title. Unfortunately, I’m left with an engine that I can’t seem to get the head to come off of the jugs. Is there a trick to this that I’m missing? All of the bolts are out.. do I need to remove the front cam chain guide?

 

[5twins]

Are you sure you took all the bolts out? Besides the obvious ones on top, you have to remove the two under the spark plugs, and the little M6 bolt at the rear between the carb mounts. Then it's just a matter of breaking the head gasket loose between the 2 parts. Then usually some selective raps with a big rubber mallet do the trick, up front under the exhaust ports and at the rear under the intake ports. No, the front guide doesn't have to be touched, but you could remove the cam chain tensioner adjuster bolt and plunger from the rear.

 

[GLJ]

There's always the Indian rope trick. It has to be done carefully on a 650.

 

[GLJ]

As for the thread title that brings back fond memories of my youth.

 

[XSWestgate]

Are you sure you took all the bolts out? Besides the obvious ones on top, you have to remove the two under the spark plugs, and the little M6 bolt at the rear between the carb mounts. Then it's just a matter of breaking the head gasket loose between the 2 parts. Then usually some selective raps with a big rubber mallet do the trick, up front under the exhaust ports and at the rear under the intake ports. No, the front guide doesn't have to be touched, but you could remove the cam chain tensioner adjuster bolt and plunger from the rear.

Thanks for the reply. I have taken the extra three out as well as the CCT. I’m stuck on the unsticking part of the operation. I don’t know what they put on there on the last build but it’s not coming apart with a mallet either. As I beat on the head, it just moves everything around on the base gasket. I read about the Indian rope trick and was going to try it but don’t clearly see how it would work if the jugs are free to move off the base gasket. Wouldn’t it just lift everything up off the base gasket?

 

[Jim]

...... don’t clearly see how it would work if the jugs are free to move off the base gasket. Wouldn’t it just lift everything up off the base gasket?

If the base gasket is loose, just pull the head and jugs as an assembly. Then separate them on the bench.

 

[GLJ]

Thanks for the reply. I have taken the extra three out as well as the CCT. I’m stuck on the unsticking part of the operation. I don’t know what they put on there on the last build but it’s not coming apart with a mallet either. As I beat on the head, it just moves everything around on the base gasket. I read about the Indian rope trick and was going to try it but don’t clearly see how it would work if the jugs are free to move off the base gasket. Wouldn’t it just lift everything up off the base gasket?

Good point.
You may have to make a half dozen wedges to put between the cylinder and head. Carefully tap them in. Then spray paint stripper in and let it work.God help you if they used some kind of shellac on it.

 

[Downeaster]

"Indian Rope Trick". I tried to get my wife to go for that one once...

 

[GLJ]

"Indian Rope Trick". I tried to get my wife to go for that one once...

You got to have a rope not a shoe lace.

 

[halfmile]

I`m in agreement with GLJ. When I read the title I thought this thread might be about my Prom Date.

 

[grizld1]

I use wood carpenter's shims to separate head and cylinders. Tap them in gently between the fins on the sides of the motor. They spread the load so there's no risk of breaking fins, and if you don't want to lift the cylinders, the downward force keeps the base gasket seal intact. Get a bundle at any lumberyard or home improvement store.

 

[Downeaster]

You got a spy cam in my shower?

 

[MaxPete]

As for the thread title that brings back fond memories of my youth.

 

[MaxPete]

OH GAWD - this thread is hilarious.

What a bunch of horny old bastards we are....

_________ back to our regularly scheduled show ___________

All seriousness aside....sorry XSWestgate - back to your problem.

What we are trying to convey is that you must make certain that ALL of the fasteners joining the head to the jugs (OH GAWD...) have been removed (difficult as that may be...).

There are the obvious eight big nuts (tee hee) up-top AND there are a whole bunch of smaller bolts sprinkled <yuk> around including the two under the spark plugs (one on each side - #9 and #10) which are often missed and the one right at the rear adjacent to the cam chain tensioner housing (#11 in the figure below) - plus several others (don't forget #12, 13, 14 and 15).

There are 15 fasteners in all and you should also remove the chrome oil supply tube running up the front of the engine. Check the figure (no giggling you guys) below:

If all of those have been removed and the head is still stuck - then yeah, you have definitely got your head stuck to the jugs.

(DAMMIT - stop laughing you bunch of reprobates).

As suggested by Jim, if you can do it, I would pull the head and the cylinder barrel off as a unit. Then, assuming that someone did use gasket shellac (or some other icky-sticky substance ) on the head gasket, perhaps a gentle application of a propane torch around the head to soften it while gently tapping on a wooden shim between the fins might help...?

CAUTION: the cylinder head fins are fragile, so don't hit anything too hard.

Pete

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

A similar challenge, with some ideas.

Posts #334 to ##345.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/first-xs650-build-what-to-look-for.43453/page-17#post-458682

 

[peanut]

you'll get a lot more shock force into the head if you were to use a short piece of wood and a weighty 1lb hammer
The softwood will prevent any damage to the aluminium but the heavier hammer will impart a considerably greater shock force to the head than rubber or plastic mallets ever could.

Don't hit the fins or wedge between them or you'll simply break the fins off long before you loosen the head.

Don't be tempted to drive screwdrivers or wood chisels between the head and cylinders you'll irreparably damage the gasket surface.

Personally I would leave the engine bolted into the frame it will hold the engine far more securely and safer than anything you could do on the bench or the ground .

if it still won't shift then you'll need to heat the cylinder head up and try again when they are hot enough that your spit sizzles .

 

[grizld1]

You are of course entitled to your opinion, peanut. But regarding your claim that soft wood wedges will break fins before the head lifts, 26 years of experience with XS650 motors says otherwise. Many heads lifted that way, no broken or deformed fins, no need to hit hard with the BFH.

 

[59Tebo]

Westgate,
How about a picture of those jugs (hee hee, sorry Pete )? There must've been some nasty goo put on there by the (dreaded) P.O. if those heads haven't popped off there yet. "The Basketcase" was really roached, and after all the bolts were removed, a few taps with a rubber mallet later, everything was coming apart, no problemo. Consult MaxPete's "figure" (above) and make certain all hardware is removed. Good luck!

 

[peanut]

You are of course entitled to your opinion, peanut. But regarding your claim that soft wood wedges will break fins before the head lifts, 26 years of experience with XS650 motors says otherwise. Many heads lifted that way, no broken or deformed fins, no need to hit hard with the BFH.

well as you say 26 years of experience and attention to detail and you get away with it ......as would I, but I would never advocate anyone else tried this unless I knew that they also have the skill and experience to do this safely without causing expensive damage.

The fact that the PO needs to ask for advice about how to go about this tells me that he or she probably doesn't have the necessary experience , resources or ingenuity to drive wedges without causing damage to the head.

To be fair if you were to take this engine to an Engineering shop (notice I did not say garage or bike shop ), you wouldn't expect an Engineer to bang wooden wedges into the fins with a hammer would you

 

[XSWestgate]

well as you say 26 years of experience and attention to detail and you get away with it ......as would I, but I would never advocate anyone else tried this unless I knew that they also have the skill and experience to do this safely without causing expensive damage.

The fact that the PO needs to ask for advice about how to go about this tells me that he or she probably doesn't have the necessary experience , resources or ingenuity to drive wedges without causing damage to the head.

To be fair if you were to take this engine to an Engineering shop (notice I did not say garage or bike shop ), you wouldn't expect an Engineer to bang wooden wedges into the fins with a hammer would you

I'm not a fan of assumptions and I get that sometimes it's all we have to formulate a response on.. As an engineer, I can confirm you're giving engineers too much credit and a bike shop would be my choice if I didn't have over a decade of wrenching experience. I've tried everything you've mentioned without luck which is why I came to the forum and I appreciate everyone's input. It's a toss up between the "TwoMany Jugs Method?" and the wedges. I'll post the jugs post-op.