I’ve gotta find that article on this forum I read about someone who heated up their cylinder in oven and the sleeves fell out. If I could do something like that then maybe I could harvest one of Daniels used sleeves and do something like that myself.

Then I would be right back to just honing the cylinders and get on with my life! Haha!
 
Hey, Bob. May I recommend, do a forum search on "cylinder sleeve", posted by member "TwoManyXS1Bs".

Read 'em all...

Holy Macaroni!
When you assign homework, you REALLY assign homework. My eyes are bleeding and my head hurts. I had to take a nap halfway through and stop for pizza. But I did it, every single search result and all the links off of those and about a dozen rabbit holes to read various associated threads. Whew! I even went on YouTube and watched about ten different videos about pulling and installing cylinder liners.

I learned a heck of a lot. But now I’m wondering about a couple things. As I stated I am thinking of trying to pull a used cylinder liner from one of Daniels spare cylinders. What concerns me are the number of small differences between the 256 engines and the later 447’s. For instance the small notch in the edge of the cylinder liner rim for the positioning dowel. My engine has them, later models don’t. Earlier in the day I was thinking about just sourcing a whole new cylinder assembly from eBay. The 447 models are a dime a dozen, but then I began to realize , cam chain tensioners, heads and barrels all have slight variations.

So now I’m wondering if I CAN swap in a later cylinder liner.
 
.....So now I’m wondering if I CAN swap in a later cylinder liner.
I'm thinkin' you can. I've done a lot of reading too (I'm bored... sue me;)). Mikes claims their sleeve works for all models. I've not read anything yet that refutes that. The bushing notch could easily be added to a sleeve.....
 
Here ya go Bob..........

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Bob, good on ya for trudging thru all those. Makes communications better. And makes it easier for the rest of us. Have an aspirin on me.

Here's what to think about and what to look for:

-Dowel notch in the flange, I think those continued into the mid '70s.

-Flange dimension, cylinders are 'decked' after sleeve install, compare your flange thickness to any candidates. Per that sleeve bulletin, you can get away with height imperfections up to 0.004", altho' I prefer dead flat.

-Ease of sleeve removal, if any pop out too easily, could mean undersized. Really need a good 3"-4" micrometer here.

Otherwise, sounds like you're up to speed... :thumbsup:
 
Bob, good on ya for trudging thru all those. Makes communications better. And makes it easier for the rest of us.


Thanks Steve,
And thanks for making me earn it. Teach a man to fish and all that. Haha! Honestly having to plow through all that helps you to retain it.
If I may be perfectly honest here. Sometimes I feel over my head. I have done light mechanics my whole life. It doesn’t take a lot of skill to be a parts swapper, or to throw money at a problem until it goes away. As a young man I worked in a fleet garage for ten years, where they repaired everything from Peterbuilt trucks to fork lifts, but I was the shop welder, not a mechanic. I learned a lot working in that environment, but I wasn’t the guy diagnosing problems. It’s a whole nother animal learning to diagnose problems and to really understand how things work.
For such a simple machine as our bikes are, the intricacies and variables and tips and tricks and all the little differences between model years are enough to fill volumes. I’m a little slow but I’ll get there.

“ Perserverance is the hard work you do after you get tired of doing the hard work you already did.”
 
Attaboy, Bob. Hang in there.

The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

An appropriate indicator while on the path.

As far as knowledge of sleeves go, you're over the hump. Plus, you're becoming an expert on these things. What's left is the pleasant sound of *clunk* when you hear a sleeve slip out of a cylinder block.

Back in the day, we would usually just mindlessly swap parts, new for old. The new stuff was there, settin' on the shelves, with genuine factory markings, guaranteed to work.

Many of these bikes are well past those times, with experience and unknown histories, so sometimes innovative re-engineering, machining solutions have to be cooked up.

Welcome to the madhouse...
 
Well just a little update:

The search for a machine shop continues. This morning I called the largest NAPA store in Phoenix, it’s been there my whole life. It’s the main distribution center and they always had a big machine shop in the back. I used to go there with my dad when I was a kid. My dad was always rebuilding motors. So anyways, I called them up this morning and asked to be connected to the machine shop and they told me it had closed up years ago. It’s sad really, machinests and shops are a dying breed.

But then , you’re not going to believe this, I found one within walking distance from my house. I was searching online for machine shops near me, I’ve looked a dozen times. And one popped up that never showed up before.
I have lived in the same house for almost 30 years, the neighborhood adjacent to me is acre lots with all custom homes. This guy has a couple acres and has a full blown machine shop in an outbuilding behind his house. He’s been there for FORTY years and I never knew. It turns out he’s kind of a big deal in the professional racing scene.
He builds high end race motors for dragsters and racing boats and drag bikes. He ships motors all over the world and writes technical articles for motor building publications. This is the guy.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2016/07/a-job-well-done/

I went to go see him today. Five minutes inside his shop and talking to him, I knew he was a first rate machinist.
He’s 64 years old, and he skydives, still races top fuel drag bikes ( and so does his 64 year old wife!!!) and he races drag boats. He told me when he first bought his house, it was all farmland out here and he had a two lane blacktop road running by his house, he was building dragsters at the time and he would roll them out to the road and run them up and down the street!

But......he is used to building money is no object motors. And he insists on perfection, oddly enough he wasn’t put off by my little job, but he is hard to reign in. Again, he can’t give me any upfront pricing, says it’ll depend on how much time he has in it. And he really wasn’t crazy about the idea of me supplying crap pistons ( his words ) and rings for a motor he works on. His idea is to measure and order Wiseco pistons and rings. How much I ask, I don’t know he says.
Well can you just give me some idea? $250-300 he says. I can tell he knows his stuff, but he’s very accustomed to calling the shots and he bristles when you question him. I tried telling him I’m building an old bike to just putt around the neighborhood, not a race bike. Haha! He didn’t seem too impressed.
 
Ha! Jim very timely! Another update.

Today I went to Daniel Blacks house and picked up a spare set of jugs he had to see if I could salvage a liner.
I haven’t had a chance to clean it up and take any measurements yet but here is a little photo comparison, the cylinder looks exactly like mine who’s is a good start.
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A9564691-A3E3-4E22-9D94-F8A9AE7A6016.jpeg
12F00F44-F756-42A1-8EC6-C1AE3EB447E4.jpeg


Here’s another thing that gives me some hope. Comparing the numbers on the cylinder sleeves, mine say .015, his say .006. So his are .009 smaller than mine are , that gives me a little more honing leeway to try and clean up the cylinders.
My pistons are 74.963, so with my stock liners the clearances are .052
If I used Daniels sleeves the starting point for clearance would’ve been .043
So again a little more room for honing. His cylinder has been laying around outside and the bores look pretty rusty, but I think it is pretty superficial, I’ll know more after cleaning them up.

Jim, that’s cool you gave that a try. I’m feeling more hopeful.
 

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Are you sure this guy understands that he is not expected to rebuild the whole engine? Strange that he won't work with the pistons and rings that you supply. Maybe this guy is just over qualified. Bet you he doesn't work on lawnmowers and tractors.

Scott
 
Are you sure this guy understands that he is not expected to rebuild the whole engine? Strange that he won't work with the pistons and rings that you supply. Maybe this guy is just over qualified. Bet you he doesn't work on lawnmowers and tractors.

Scott

Haha! Yeah he understood. He said he would do whatever I wanted, but he couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t want Wiseco high performance forged pistons.
 
I just Googled Avondale AZ, you're in a highly populated area ! Wonder if you'd do better finding a shop in a less populated area, far enough away from the metropolis? Like a small industrial town with a 10k - 20k population.

Scott
 
I just Googled Avondale AZ, you're in a highly populated area ! Wonder if you'd do better finding a shop in a less populated area, far enough away from the metropolis? Like a small industrial town with a 10k - 20k population.

Scott

I’m on it Scott, I have several more machine shops to call probably Monday. A couple hot rod builders and a Volkswagen restoration shop that takes in machine shop work including motorcycles.

I’m holding onto hope that I might still be able to install, hone and use the cylinder sleeves that came from Daniel.
And MAYBE avoid the machine shop, but we will see.
 
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