WOW! That is a beauty. Nice job Brassneck!
Well ya know the quote Pete "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
Well ya know the quote Pete "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
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On the road again at 40.............the bike that is..........PART DEUX
- Thread starter robinc
- Start date
Indeed. I've go all the necessary parts - it's just that life keeps interfering: #2 daughters in July, consulting work, trip on the ST, keeping the St and Lucille running....
However, the end of that list is in sight and I'm not in a hurry so....soon.
However, the end of that list is in sight and I'm not in a hurry so....soon.
Wow, been a long time since I've done anything on this project and made any updates. My other girls been demanding attention, maybe she's OK for a bit.
Finally got some time again today to get some work done on this old girl.
Decided to start again with what for me is the nastiest job. Cleaning all the electrical connections.
Wanted to post this tip and give a shout out to Scott, mrtwowheel for this idea.
Using these in a cordless drill to clean female butt connectors works great!
I know 5twins uses The Tannery to clean the outside case of the clear plastic butt connector covers, couldn't find any of that up here but Mothers vinyl/rubber cleaner/protectant does the job as well.
About half done and can then get to the fun stuff like M/C, caliper, etc. etc. etc.
Finally got some time again today to get some work done on this old girl.
Decided to start again with what for me is the nastiest job. Cleaning all the electrical connections.
Wanted to post this tip and give a shout out to Scott, mrtwowheel for this idea.
Using these in a cordless drill to clean female butt connectors works great!
I know 5twins uses The Tannery to clean the outside case of the clear plastic butt connector covers, couldn't find any of that up here but Mothers vinyl/rubber cleaner/protectant does the job as well.
About half done and can then get to the fun stuff like M/C, caliper, etc. etc. etc.
Now THAT is a great idea for cleaning the bullet connectors!
.....but where did you find that in Canada, Robin?
Got them at Canadian Tire believe it or not Pete. Also found that local gun shops stock them. They do wear out rather quickly so get a few. Not expensive.
Robin, I was just going back through your thread for your '78 Black Betty and you said that it had sat for 12 years prior to you buying it. I'm just curious, I've never tried to revive an engine that has sat for so long. Did you have to put any kind of penetrating solvent in the cylinders to loosen things up? Or squirt oil in the cylinders?
I just wandered what your experience was , to prep your bike for start up.
I can't wait to see this project when it gets going. Great work so far!
Bob
I just wandered what your experience was , to prep your bike for start up.
I can't wait to see this project when it gets going. Great work so far!
Bob
Yup - I got some at the local gunsmith here in Windsor. Very interesting place. I've never been in there before.
Hey Bob. Thank you. Wish there was more time.
I was planning to be a lot further along on this project by now but my other girl seemed to want more attention.
Yes I used PB Blaster on the valve stems and in the plug holes. Let it sit for a couple days, repeated a couple of times I think then put a socket on the alternator nut and turned just a little and it turned easy.
So, checked the valves, I think one was off by a thou, cam chain adjuster etc.
Edit: changed the oil.
Hooked up my old trolling motor battery and was surprised at how easily it started. Not first or second kick though.....lol.
Once it had been run, electric start would start it.
Just rebuilt her carbs and have been running them on Ol'Blue. Will post an update on that.
Cheers!
I was planning to be a lot further along on this project by now but my other girl seemed to want more attention.
Yes I used PB Blaster on the valve stems and in the plug holes. Let it sit for a couple days, repeated a couple of times I think then put a socket on the alternator nut and turned just a little and it turned easy.
So, checked the valves, I think one was off by a thou, cam chain adjuster etc.
Edit: changed the oil.
Hooked up my old trolling motor battery and was surprised at how easily it started. Not first or second kick though.....lol.
Once it had been run, electric start would start it.
Just rebuilt her carbs and have been running them on Ol'Blue. Will post an update on that.
Cheers!
Last edited:
I must admit I've been doing more riding than wrenching these days. Trying to make up for some lost time and enjoying the summer like weather we've had lately.
Had a chance to get back to this project again and could have/should have carried on with cleaning up the electricals but got carried away with a far more fun for me job - tearing down, cleaning and rebuilding the carbs.
I also wanted to get them done to run them on my other bike before rebuilding that engine to note any differences. OK, maybe that’s just an excuse to justify doing carbs instead of electricals.
Some before pics
The last time I had these carbs running I could not get it to idle below 1500 rpm without stalling. The float bowls weren’t too bad but some residue. Pilot circuits were likely all gummed up too. Slides were almost stuck they were so gummed up. One of the needle jets was cracked. Evidence that it was installed with a hammer when one of the PO’s put in new o-rings.
Otherwise, nothing really out of the ordinary with this set.
Installed all new spec jets, float valves and o-rings. I guess the only source for needle jets is Mikes/XS650Direct so I got a pair. Measured them up to see how they compare.
Another interesting discovery re: float bowl gaskets.
A brand new out of the bag Yamaha gasket measured 0.0465" 'consistently' all the way around.
XSD measured 0.0365'", 0.0405", 0.0390", 0.0145", 0.0380", 0.0385", 0.0410", 0.0415".
You get the idea.
Gasket costs:
Yamaha $17.00 apiece
XSD $6.95 apiece
Also out of interest I measured the gaskets out of these carbs.. These gaskets have been in there for at least 12 years, as long as the bike had been sitting before I got it.
0.0520" to 0.0540". I can't say if this is because they were thicker back then or because of swelling due to fuel absorption.
I reused the existing gaskets as they were in good shape and were the thickest. The carb bodies on these were warped as well as 2M had discovered in the past so the thicker the gasket the better.
Danielblack suggested that I should post some info on my polishing setup and routine so thought I’d put it in here in case anyone might interested.
Here is the main small parts polisher I use. Can't remember what I built this for years ago but I'm happy now that I did. I love building tools and have built lot's of them over the years.
This is just an old furnace motor I think. 1725 rpm. An arbor then a old drill chuck so you can get 2 different grade buffing wheels and compounds at the same time.
On carb tops, carb joiners, valve covers, etc. I start with a Black Emery bar, then switch to a White Diamond. Then on to a Red Rouge. You want to use a different wheel for each grade of buffing compound.
When I want an even finer finish I then go to another polisher.
This is actually a washing machine motor that I enclosed because I use it to power a lathe (borrowed from) that I built and didn't want it getting clogged up with sawdust. I love washing machine motors, they are 2 speed motors, and I 'may' have been seen scrounging the odd motor from a discarded machine at the roadside. (With the owner's permission of course)
You likely know washing machine motors are open windings and aren't enclosed in a case. I built both a large and small lathe and found they would plug with sawdust. Then found once I enclosed the motors they would heat up and the overload relay would shut them down. So I added some surplus computer cooling fans wired into the 2 way switch.
For this final stage I use a special honing compound that I get at Lee Valley Tools here in Canada.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32984&cat=1,43072
I use this fine honing compound on a power leather strop to polish woodworking chisel and plane blades 'scary' sharp. I can literally shave with them when I'm done.
I only go to this final green honing compound stage on carb tops, connector plate and valve covers. I find it is worth it there.
For screws and other fasteners I start at White Diamond and stop at Red Rouge. Like these.
Holding screws against a spinning wheel isn't the easiest thing to do so I took a piece of aluminum flatstock and drilled/tapped some holes to hold the screws and bolts. I just thread them in so they stick out the back and can then can put a finger on them to prevent them from spinning out when polishing.
I know a lot of you use stainless allens in place of these originals, I have a bunch of them as well and I did that on one set, but those carb body holes were already compromised and the tougher stainless screws chewed up the threads on a couple of the hard to get at ones.
I have been hesitant to try them again and that lead me to this solution. Only takes a couple minutes per screw.
Connector plate and tops I use black, white, red rouge and finish with green.
.
Float bowls were done with White Diamond and Red Rouge.
To get into all the little nooks and crannies I use a couple of sets of these little felt bobs.
Some finished pics.
All this polishing might be a little anal but I think they look better. My Dad always said a clean car runs better. That didn't make sense to me at first but over time I got it. I’m applying the same philosophy here I guess. A hydrosonic cleaner is on my wishlist, but for now I just use mineral spirits to clean the bodies.
I should mention that I clean the parts I’m polishing with carb cleaner or brake cleaner before moving on to a different grade of buffing compound to remove the residue.
I have used up the 10 or so motors that I have scrounged over the years building other tools/equipment and am currently looking for another motor that I can use to build a BIG 8" - 4 wheel buffer to do engine cases, lower fork tubes, etc. Those big 8" buffers cost $150 or so up here.
I can build something for a lot less than $300 using a scrounged motor, 4 pillow blocks, some pulleys, a couple of 5/8" dia. rods, a relay and a SPDT switch.
I hope all of this has been of some interest, at least it kept me away from cleaning electrical connections a little while longer.
Results of carb refurb - they perform perfectly. Will post some more details on that in my other thread as that's the bike they're currently on.
Had a chance to get back to this project again and could have/should have carried on with cleaning up the electricals but got carried away with a far more fun for me job - tearing down, cleaning and rebuilding the carbs.
I also wanted to get them done to run them on my other bike before rebuilding that engine to note any differences. OK, maybe that’s just an excuse to justify doing carbs instead of electricals.
Some before pics
The last time I had these carbs running I could not get it to idle below 1500 rpm without stalling. The float bowls weren’t too bad but some residue. Pilot circuits were likely all gummed up too. Slides were almost stuck they were so gummed up. One of the needle jets was cracked. Evidence that it was installed with a hammer when one of the PO’s put in new o-rings.
Otherwise, nothing really out of the ordinary with this set.
Installed all new spec jets, float valves and o-rings. I guess the only source for needle jets is Mikes/XS650Direct so I got a pair. Measured them up to see how they compare.
Another interesting discovery re: float bowl gaskets.
A brand new out of the bag Yamaha gasket measured 0.0465" 'consistently' all the way around.
XSD measured 0.0365'", 0.0405", 0.0390", 0.0145", 0.0380", 0.0385", 0.0410", 0.0415".
You get the idea.
Gasket costs:
Yamaha $17.00 apiece
XSD $6.95 apiece
Also out of interest I measured the gaskets out of these carbs.. These gaskets have been in there for at least 12 years, as long as the bike had been sitting before I got it.
0.0520" to 0.0540". I can't say if this is because they were thicker back then or because of swelling due to fuel absorption.
I reused the existing gaskets as they were in good shape and were the thickest. The carb bodies on these were warped as well as 2M had discovered in the past so the thicker the gasket the better.
Danielblack suggested that I should post some info on my polishing setup and routine so thought I’d put it in here in case anyone might interested.
Here is the main small parts polisher I use. Can't remember what I built this for years ago but I'm happy now that I did. I love building tools and have built lot's of them over the years.
This is just an old furnace motor I think. 1725 rpm. An arbor then a old drill chuck so you can get 2 different grade buffing wheels and compounds at the same time.
On carb tops, carb joiners, valve covers, etc. I start with a Black Emery bar, then switch to a White Diamond. Then on to a Red Rouge. You want to use a different wheel for each grade of buffing compound.
When I want an even finer finish I then go to another polisher.
This is actually a washing machine motor that I enclosed because I use it to power a lathe (borrowed from) that I built and didn't want it getting clogged up with sawdust. I love washing machine motors, they are 2 speed motors, and I 'may' have been seen scrounging the odd motor from a discarded machine at the roadside. (With the owner's permission of course)
You likely know washing machine motors are open windings and aren't enclosed in a case. I built both a large and small lathe and found they would plug with sawdust. Then found once I enclosed the motors they would heat up and the overload relay would shut them down. So I added some surplus computer cooling fans wired into the 2 way switch.
For this final stage I use a special honing compound that I get at Lee Valley Tools here in Canada.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32984&cat=1,43072
I use this fine honing compound on a power leather strop to polish woodworking chisel and plane blades 'scary' sharp. I can literally shave with them when I'm done.
I only go to this final green honing compound stage on carb tops, connector plate and valve covers. I find it is worth it there.
For screws and other fasteners I start at White Diamond and stop at Red Rouge. Like these.
Holding screws against a spinning wheel isn't the easiest thing to do so I took a piece of aluminum flatstock and drilled/tapped some holes to hold the screws and bolts. I just thread them in so they stick out the back and can then can put a finger on them to prevent them from spinning out when polishing.
I know a lot of you use stainless allens in place of these originals, I have a bunch of them as well and I did that on one set, but those carb body holes were already compromised and the tougher stainless screws chewed up the threads on a couple of the hard to get at ones.
I have been hesitant to try them again and that lead me to this solution. Only takes a couple minutes per screw.
Connector plate and tops I use black, white, red rouge and finish with green.
.
Float bowls were done with White Diamond and Red Rouge.
To get into all the little nooks and crannies I use a couple of sets of these little felt bobs.
Some finished pics.
All this polishing might be a little anal but I think they look better. My Dad always said a clean car runs better. That didn't make sense to me at first but over time I got it. I’m applying the same philosophy here I guess. A hydrosonic cleaner is on my wishlist, but for now I just use mineral spirits to clean the bodies.
I should mention that I clean the parts I’m polishing with carb cleaner or brake cleaner before moving on to a different grade of buffing compound to remove the residue.
I have used up the 10 or so motors that I have scrounged over the years building other tools/equipment and am currently looking for another motor that I can use to build a BIG 8" - 4 wheel buffer to do engine cases, lower fork tubes, etc. Those big 8" buffers cost $150 or so up here.
I can build something for a lot less than $300 using a scrounged motor, 4 pillow blocks, some pulleys, a couple of 5/8" dia. rods, a relay and a SPDT switch.
I hope all of this has been of some interest, at least it kept me away from cleaning electrical connections a little while longer.
Results of carb refurb - they perform perfectly. Will post some more details on that in my other thread as that's the bike they're currently on.
Bloody nice Robin!
I'll be right over with mine!
I'll be right over with mine!
Thanks Pete. Sounds good. BEvERages in the fridge.
Text me when you're on your way. If I don't get back to you right away, it's likely cause I'm still out testing and didn't hear my phone.
Text me when you're on your way. If I don't get back to you right away, it's likely cause I'm still out testing and didn't hear my phone.
Dang Robin! You sure do nice work! Thanks for posting all that. I have to take that all in. You know I love shiny parts! Well done and thanks again!
Btw, I didn't even know this carb bowls could be shined up like that!
Great post!
Bob
Btw, I didn't even know this carb bowls could be shined up like that!
Great post!
Bob
Thanks Bob. Got a little carried away but what the hey. I like shiny parts too....lol, and the bonus, they run real nice!
Will have to confirm that though with some more road tests over the next couple of days while I have a little time. Couple of mental health days!
Hope the rain holds off!
Will have to confirm that though with some more road tests over the next couple of days while I have a little time. Couple of mental health days!
Hope the rain holds off!
TimeMachine
SeventyEighte
Carb doctor extraordanair ? Robin , your carb posts are fastinating to 78e owners. Turns out there is a difference of "lucky" and "good" . Your efforts are much respected . My carbs are in exceptional condition which made it too easy..
Thank you TM. Nice to hear from you. Your kind words are very much appreciated.
Take care!
Take care!
You certainly did get those carbs looking good but I have to wonder if polishing some of those parts was the right choice. Things like the screws and that top bracket are just cad plated which is very thin. Hopefully all the polishing didn't remove it. But I guess only time will tell. If they start rusting in a few weeks you'll know.
Thank you 5twins.
Lol, true enough. I guess if the bracket rusts, I'll just paint it and if the screws do, I'll put in the stainless Allen's. Will keep an eye on it and see how it goes.
Lol, true enough. I guess if the bracket rusts, I'll just paint it and if the screws do, I'll put in the stainless Allen's. Will keep an eye on it and see how it goes.
I guess the title for this post is: “Variations on voltmeters”.
For the last month I have been putting the cart before the horse playing around with a pet project of how to mount an Analog Voltmeter gauge.
In my other restoration thread for my 77 I had shown this Voltmeter setup - Version 1, that I had rigged up.
It works just fine but isn't as 'elegant’ a solution as I would like. After buying it I had to find a way to make it work and this does but it just looks a little chunky to me, but is about the only way I could get it to work in this location. A case where form followed function I guess.
I have a bar mount digital/USB charger port VM as well as the smaller digital units many have used but there's just something about an old school gauge, triple gauge setup to my eye.
Our esteemed MaxPete threw down the gauntlet by suggesting trying something like this Triumph setup and of course I had to accept the challenge.
Considering options there are only a couple of solutions to mount a Voltmeter up in front of the pilot boxes on the later models. On the earlier models without the big pilot boxes it is easier to tuck one in tighter between the speedo and tach.
Building an enclosure for protection from the elements is a sticking point but some parts from the plumbing box might provide the answer.
So let's see if we can build a Voltmeter mount with this stuff.
The first option I played with is mounting it to the instrument case mounting bolts. Here are a some mock ups of versions of that idea using some 1/8” hardboard as templates. They would work fine but I worry vibration may be an issue. To solve that I guess you could drill through and bolt to the bottom of the speedo and tach buckets.
Version 2 using an 2” VM.
And Version 3 with a 1 1/2” VM
.
I wasn't really taken by either of these solutions so I never moved past mock up to fabrication.
Next step we move onto Pete's idea and use a plate. The tach and speedo will hold it in place
Here’s the rough pattern.
Version 4 with a 2” VM.
Na, too big. Let's try something else.
Version 5
Na too curvy and expected.
Version 6 with a 2” VM.
Version 6 with a 1 1/2” VM.
Ya, I think that’s it, so I decided to move ahead.
Started on the housing.
First step, drill out the top of the threaded cap.
Didn’t have 1 5/8” or 2 1/16” hole saws so enlarged the holes with a small sanding drum on my drill press.
Then made up some mounting brackets to fit inside the ABS fittings.
Now onto the mounting plate. First tried some1/8” ABS sheet but it wasn't firm enough, so had to move onto 1/8” aluminum plate. Of course at this point my old tired bandsaw decided she was done and the replacement I want isn't in the budget right now so had to cut the plate with a jigsaw.
Took a little longer……..ok, took a LOT longer, but it worked. Gotta get that CNC router built someday.
Couple of plates.
Here is Version 6, the 2” VM plate test fit.
And Version 6, the 1 1/2” VM test fit.
I matched the bottom profile of the instrument buckets as best I could without cutting through with a cove bit on a router table.
Glued then filled the joints with a little Bondo and Spot and Glaze putty and primed.
Then rigged up a couple of high tech spray booths…...lol.
Some paint coats, wet sanding, clear coats and plates and housing parts are done.
VM light is wired into a new double butt connector on the green headlight wire in the headlight bucket and the VM itself is wired into a new triple connector on the switched brown.
I had thought for a bit on how I was going to wire it up once it was installed.
Drilled an access hole for wiring, back off a 1/4 turn, fish the connectors out, plug everything together, stuff the wires into the bottom of the housing and tighten housing a 1/4 turn.
And voila! A 2” Voltmeter install from plumbing parts.
It is reading low voltage as I haven't bought a new battery for this bike yet so it's jumpered off my weak old trolling motor battery.
The foam rubber speedo and tach dampers won’t fit inside the smaller plate holes so I used YamadudeXS650C and Weekendriders o-ring trick.
And the 1 1/2"
Currently working on Version 7 for a buddy's 80 Special that I'm helping him restore.
Some day on another project I think I'd like to try removing the pilot box so I could move the VM in tighter between the instruments, rework the plate and install LED's in a custom dash plate.
Now to take it all apart again so I can strip and repaint those pitted/corroded speedo and tach housings.
For the last month I have been putting the cart before the horse playing around with a pet project of how to mount an Analog Voltmeter gauge.
In my other restoration thread for my 77 I had shown this Voltmeter setup - Version 1, that I had rigged up.
It works just fine but isn't as 'elegant’ a solution as I would like. After buying it I had to find a way to make it work and this does but it just looks a little chunky to me, but is about the only way I could get it to work in this location. A case where form followed function I guess.
I have a bar mount digital/USB charger port VM as well as the smaller digital units many have used but there's just something about an old school gauge, triple gauge setup to my eye.
Our esteemed MaxPete threw down the gauntlet by suggesting trying something like this Triumph setup and of course I had to accept the challenge.
Considering options there are only a couple of solutions to mount a Voltmeter up in front of the pilot boxes on the later models. On the earlier models without the big pilot boxes it is easier to tuck one in tighter between the speedo and tach.
Building an enclosure for protection from the elements is a sticking point but some parts from the plumbing box might provide the answer.
So let's see if we can build a Voltmeter mount with this stuff.
The first option I played with is mounting it to the instrument case mounting bolts. Here are a some mock ups of versions of that idea using some 1/8” hardboard as templates. They would work fine but I worry vibration may be an issue. To solve that I guess you could drill through and bolt to the bottom of the speedo and tach buckets.
Version 2 using an 2” VM.
And Version 3 with a 1 1/2” VM
I wasn't really taken by either of these solutions so I never moved past mock up to fabrication.
Next step we move onto Pete's idea and use a plate. The tach and speedo will hold it in place
Here’s the rough pattern.
Version 4 with a 2” VM.
Na, too big. Let's try something else.
Version 5
Na too curvy and expected.
Version 6 with a 2” VM.
Version 6 with a 1 1/2” VM.
Ya, I think that’s it, so I decided to move ahead.
Started on the housing.
First step, drill out the top of the threaded cap.
Didn’t have 1 5/8” or 2 1/16” hole saws so enlarged the holes with a small sanding drum on my drill press.
Then made up some mounting brackets to fit inside the ABS fittings.
Now onto the mounting plate. First tried some1/8” ABS sheet but it wasn't firm enough, so had to move onto 1/8” aluminum plate. Of course at this point my old tired bandsaw decided she was done and the replacement I want isn't in the budget right now so had to cut the plate with a jigsaw.
Took a little longer……..ok, took a LOT longer, but it worked. Gotta get that CNC router built someday.
Couple of plates.
Here is Version 6, the 2” VM plate test fit.
And Version 6, the 1 1/2” VM test fit.
I matched the bottom profile of the instrument buckets as best I could without cutting through with a cove bit on a router table.
Glued then filled the joints with a little Bondo and Spot and Glaze putty and primed.
Then rigged up a couple of high tech spray booths…...lol.
Some paint coats, wet sanding, clear coats and plates and housing parts are done.
VM light is wired into a new double butt connector on the green headlight wire in the headlight bucket and the VM itself is wired into a new triple connector on the switched brown.
I had thought for a bit on how I was going to wire it up once it was installed.
Drilled an access hole for wiring, back off a 1/4 turn, fish the connectors out, plug everything together, stuff the wires into the bottom of the housing and tighten housing a 1/4 turn.
And voila! A 2” Voltmeter install from plumbing parts.
It is reading low voltage as I haven't bought a new battery for this bike yet so it's jumpered off my weak old trolling motor battery.
The foam rubber speedo and tach dampers won’t fit inside the smaller plate holes so I used YamadudeXS650C and Weekendriders o-ring trick.
And the 1 1/2"
Currently working on Version 7 for a buddy's 80 Special that I'm helping him restore.
Some day on another project I think I'd like to try removing the pilot box so I could move the VM in tighter between the instruments, rework the plate and install LED's in a custom dash plate.
Now to take it all apart again so I can strip and repaint those pitted/corroded speedo and tach housings.
Dang Robin, that's some nice work there! You've been thinking about this for a while now , I can tell.
The mounting plate is so nicely made and your custom made guage enclosure really makes it look finished.
The wiring in the headlight bucket looks great also. No messy splicing you did it right with the multi plug connectors.
Well done!
Bob
The mounting plate is so nicely made and your custom made guage enclosure really makes it look finished.
The wiring in the headlight bucket looks great also. No messy splicing you did it right with the multi plug connectors.
Well done!
Bob
