Any help would be appreciated, I have a project chopper that is overcharging. I have only had it a few months and finally figured out with repeated blown tail lights the system is overcharging (16+ volts). It had a 1980 Honda CB750 combined regulator/rectifier on it, so I found an old one cheap, replaced it and it still overcharges. Doing some research and looking on the motor it is an '83 XS650K Heritage motor on it and it still has points. Since it has points I am thinking the CB750 would not have ever worked or the old one was bad also. On regulatorrectifier.com they list a model that has a combined unit that claims to work with points, anyone one have luck with this? I made wiring diagrams of my bike in my search for this problem in case anyone is truly interested. My other main question is could there be another problem that a new regulator won't fix? Thanks.
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Overcharging on Project Bike
- Thread starter dmorano
- Start date
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- Tags
- electrical
Tech7
XS650 Junkie
I don't understand what points have to do with your problem. (although an 83 should have electronic) There is no connection between the charging system and the ignition systems, other than the fact that the rotor will have a fixed magnet on electronic ignition bikes for the pickup. But is has no effect on the charging system. The only thing that would cause an overcharging problem is a bad regulator.
gmiller217
XS650 Addict
Yes an 83 should have electronic UNLESS it has been converted to a permanent magnet alternator? your reg/rec could be bad or possibly something wrong with the wiring
rwingsfan
Xs 650 Dummy
I would think it was converted to points rather than having a PM conversion. An 83 would have electronic stock, so either the whole motor has been changed or it has been converted to points. You have looked to be sure it has points? Tech7 is right, those two things have little in common. If you are overcharging almost certainly your reg/rec is bad
Dmorano, First lets get a few things straight. The ignition system has nothing to do with the charging system. It appears that who ever built your bike slapped it together with whatever he had lying around.
We need to know a few things, first what stator is on your bike? To tell you look at the brushes. If you look at the wires that hook to the brushes is on green the other black or green and brown?
This will tell you if your stator is 79 and earlier or 80 and later. You need to know this before you buy parts.
Where the wires come out of the alternator compartment they run towards the rear of the engine and come up to a six wire plug. It may be easier to see the colors there.
What colors are the wires?
The 80 up have three white wires, a brown wire, a green wire, a blue wire.
The 79 and earlier have three whites, a green, a black and a blue.
The blue wire is for the neutral light, not part of the charging system.
When you figure this out let us know.
We need to know a few things, first what stator is on your bike? To tell you look at the brushes. If you look at the wires that hook to the brushes is on green the other black or green and brown?
This will tell you if your stator is 79 and earlier or 80 and later. You need to know this before you buy parts.
Where the wires come out of the alternator compartment they run towards the rear of the engine and come up to a six wire plug. It may be easier to see the colors there.
What colors are the wires?
The 80 up have three white wires, a brown wire, a green wire, a blue wire.
The 79 and earlier have three whites, a green, a black and a blue.
The blue wire is for the neutral light, not part of the charging system.
When you figure this out let us know.
Thanks everyone for your responses. The bike's brush holder has a green wire on the outer connector (screw terminal on the bottom), this green wire has voltage on it when the key is on. The inner brush connector (screw terminal on the top) looks black (its probably dirty), but the wire coming out near the regulator/rectifier looks brown. I disconnected wire at the screw terminal on the brush holder and performed a continuity test on the wire to make sure it is indeed the same wire. This wire when connected at the brush holder is definitely connected to the frame ground. The wires at the regulator rectifier, are 3 whites, 1 green, 1 brown and 1 yellow that was not hooked to anything. No sign of blue anywhere.
My whole comment about the points was just saying that originally the bike probably had a seperate regulator from the rectifier, I guess. The points are used on the bike (I think) because each spark plug has it's own ignition coil.
My whole comment about the points was just saying that originally the bike probably had a seperate regulator from the rectifier, I guess. The points are used on the bike (I think) because each spark plug has it's own ignition coil.
gmiller217
XS650 Addict
if that wire is going directly to frame ground that puts it in "full field" IIRC which basically negates the regulator ... I would have to find and look at a wiring diagram to be sure
Ok The yellow wire is for the safety relay, if you don't have a safety relay, cap the yellow wire off. It sounds like you have the 80 and later stator. Lets be sure. On your brushes the green wire is hooked to the bottom left screw. Is the other wire, hooked directly above the green wire or is it on the upper right screw?
It sounds like the builder hot wired the brushes to make the rotor on all the time.
In the stock system the regulator turns the current off and on to control the alternator output. By hot wiring the brushes the alternator acts like a permanent magnet alternator. This is why the Honda reg/rec sorta works. On a permanent magnet alternator the rotor is a set of magnets and it keeps the stator making the max amount of electricity. This electricity goes to the reg/rec where the rec turns the AC to DC. The reg uses a zener diode set to 14.5 volts and when the output reaches 14.5 volts the zener diode bleeds off the voltage to ground to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts.
This creates lots of heat. If your reg/rec is inside a box, the heat can cause trouble. This may be why it is over charging.
If it was me I might get either a 80 up reg/rec and wire it in or use the Chrysler reg/ Radio Shack rec mods.
This diagram shows both the 79 and before as well as the 80 up reg/rec set ups. It also shows a points ignition and the stock TCI ignition. It shows the starter wiring also. If you get the basics right adding options is easy.
You can try more Honda parts or you can do it right. The choice is yours.
It sounds like the builder hot wired the brushes to make the rotor on all the time.
In the stock system the regulator turns the current off and on to control the alternator output. By hot wiring the brushes the alternator acts like a permanent magnet alternator. This is why the Honda reg/rec sorta works. On a permanent magnet alternator the rotor is a set of magnets and it keeps the stator making the max amount of electricity. This electricity goes to the reg/rec where the rec turns the AC to DC. The reg uses a zener diode set to 14.5 volts and when the output reaches 14.5 volts the zener diode bleeds off the voltage to ground to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts.
This creates lots of heat. If your reg/rec is inside a box, the heat can cause trouble. This may be why it is over charging.
If it was me I might get either a 80 up reg/rec and wire it in or use the Chrysler reg/ Radio Shack rec mods.
This diagram shows both the 79 and before as well as the 80 up reg/rec set ups. It also shows a points ignition and the stock TCI ignition. It shows the starter wiring also. If you get the basics right adding options is easy.
You can try more Honda parts or you can do it right. The choice is yours.
Attachments
The other wire is wired directly above the green wire. Both are on the left. Is the other wire supposed to be on the upper right?
If so once I move the wire I can get a combined regulator rectifier and wire it according to the diagram provided by XSLeo?
Thanks again.
If so once I move the wire I can get a combined regulator rectifier and wire it according to the diagram provided by XSLeo?
Thanks again.
If your green wire and your other wire is straight above it, the wire is black and that means your stator is defintly the 79 and older. To use a later combo reg/rec you will need to replace three of the metal screws with nylon screws. I'll post a pic showing the screws to replace.
Once the screws are changed then wiring in the combo reg/rec will be not too hard.
On my 75 where the black or brown wire from the brush comes up to the 6 wire plug I hokked a brown wire into the harness side of the plug and hooked it and the brown wire on the reg/rec together and hook those to one 10 amp fuse after the key switch. Just as in the diagram.
Following that diagram to hook in your combo reg/rec should get it to charge right.
Now not to con fuse you, but Mike's and Oregon supply or what ever the name is sell two kinds of combo reg/rec's. One is for the 80 and later, one for the 79 and earlier.
If you get one for the 79 and earlier it will wire in the match the reg/rec on the left side of the diagram and won't need the nylon screws.
If you get the 80 and later you use the reg/rec on the right side of the diagram and the nylon screws. The one thing about the Mike's or Oregon reg/rec the wires are color coded than the stock reg/rec's. When what ever you get be sure to follow there instuctions on the wiring.
My self I would use the Chrysler reg/Radio Shack rec mods. They Chrysler reg has a one year warranty, Mike's and Oregon don't. Mike's expressly says there is no warranty on reg/rec's. The Chrysler/ Radio Shack mods can be done for about $25
When you decide which set up to use I'll be around.
Once the screws are changed then wiring in the combo reg/rec will be not too hard.
On my 75 where the black or brown wire from the brush comes up to the 6 wire plug I hokked a brown wire into the harness side of the plug and hooked it and the brown wire on the reg/rec together and hook those to one 10 amp fuse after the key switch. Just as in the diagram.
Following that diagram to hook in your combo reg/rec should get it to charge right.
Now not to con fuse you, but Mike's and Oregon supply or what ever the name is sell two kinds of combo reg/rec's. One is for the 80 and later, one for the 79 and earlier.
If you get one for the 79 and earlier it will wire in the match the reg/rec on the left side of the diagram and won't need the nylon screws.
If you get the 80 and later you use the reg/rec on the right side of the diagram and the nylon screws. The one thing about the Mike's or Oregon reg/rec the wires are color coded than the stock reg/rec's. When what ever you get be sure to follow there instuctions on the wiring.
My self I would use the Chrysler reg/Radio Shack rec mods. They Chrysler reg has a one year warranty, Mike's and Oregon don't. Mike's expressly says there is no warranty on reg/rec's. The Chrysler/ Radio Shack mods can be done for about $25
When you decide which set up to use I'll be around.
Attachments
Thanks again for the excellent advice, I'll review the Chrysler mod and see if I feel I'm smart enough to do it and have a place to hide it on the bike. Since it is a really stripped down chopper there aren't many places to hide stuff and keep it dry.
Hiding the reg/rec could be part of the problem. Hiding it usually means putting it inside a fake oil tank. Putting it inside cuts off the supply of cooling air it needs.
If you do the Chrysler reg/Radio Shack rec mod the reg can be inside, the rec is what gets hot. It needs to be out in the open.
Even on the combo reg/rec it's the rec that gets hot. Maybe mounting the combo or the R/S rec under the swing arm will hide it yet let it get good air flow.
Another thought, on the R/S rec you could use an aluminum oil tank with the rectifers mounted right to the inside of the oil tank. Not on a seperate plate. This would let the whole oil tank work as a heat sink.
If you do the Chrysler reg/Radio Shack rec mod the reg can be inside, the rec is what gets hot. It needs to be out in the open.
Even on the combo reg/rec it's the rec that gets hot. Maybe mounting the combo or the R/S rec under the swing arm will hide it yet let it get good air flow.
Another thought, on the R/S rec you could use an aluminum oil tank with the rectifers mounted right to the inside of the oil tank. Not on a seperate plate. This would let the whole oil tank work as a heat sink.
