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Pamco Electronic ignition vs. high output?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by pablohoney, Mar 1, 2010.

  1. pablohoney

    pablohoney XS650 Addict

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    Hi,
    I just rebuilt the engine and carbs and I want to replace the points and coils on my 79 xs650 special and I wanted to know if it would be worth it for me to get the high output kit or the basic one, on mikes. Is it worth the $30 extra? Thanks.
     
  2. You running a starter? Or kick only?
     
  3. pumps

    pumps XS650 Junkie

    Your bike has points now? You are trying to decide between the Part #14-0901 @ $129.00 from mikes ?
    Or the Part #14-0911 @ $155.00. I got the basic one and I'm getting it to start and run really well with the cheaper one.
    You'll get a hotter spark with the higher output one though. $30 worth? Hard to say. Ask Pete.
     
  4. Well if you're running a starter then yeah ask Pete. If it was kick only I'd say do the high output.
     
  5. pablohoney

    pablohoney XS650 Addict

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    Thanks guys, I'll ask him.
     
  6. hotter spark is always better. For idling (no misses), for a complete burn, a good wavefront - but even the lower end ones will be a step up from the stock ones.

    I didn't help at all there, did i?
     
  7. pablohoney

    pablohoney XS650 Addict

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    No, you did, thanks dude.
     
  8. 650Skull

    650Skull SSSSSSSSSlither Top Contributor

    The coil on the $129 Part #14-0901 has a longer duration on the spark than the original dual out put coil. I know because this is what the guru :thumbsup: has told me
     
  9. pamcopete

    pamcopete Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple

    pablohoney,

    The 14-0901 kit comes with the 17-6822 coil that has a 37,000 volt output and a long spark duration. It also has a 4.5 Ohm primary resistance which when used with the 60 degree dwell angle PAMCO rotor results in a very cool running coil. Use 5K caps and non resistor plugs (NGK BP7ES) for good performance.

    By comparison, the stock points coils only produce 10,000 Volts and thats at 12.5 Volts. At a lower voltage when starting, it's a wonder that the engine starts at all!

    The 14-0911 kit comes with the 17-6810 "Green Monster" coil that has a 75,000 volt output. It has a 3.5 Ohm primary and also when used with the PAMCO 60 degree dwell rotor is a cool running coil. Use 5K caps and resistor plugs (NGK BPR7ES or Autolite #63's or the NGK iridium BPR7EIX).

    The higher voltage from the "Green Monster" means quicker starts, especially with a low battery because with 75,000 volts @ 14.5 V on the battery, you will still get a very high voltage when the battery is low. Has been tested to produce a workable voltage even at 5 or 6 volts on the battery. The 17-6822 also works down to 6 volts, but just doesn't produce the same workable voltage.

    The higher voltage from the "Green Monster" also means that you can open up the spark plug gap to .040 or more. A wider gap increases the exposure area for the mixture resulting in a larger "kernel" of initial flame for a more complete burn, more power and better gas mileage.

    Just think of the mixture as it enters the combustion chamber. It's truly a mixture of some air molecules, some fuel molecules and maybe a few of each that have gotten together to form a combustible mixture, so a wider gap means that more of these molecules will be exposed to the spark to start the combustion process. The higher voltage from the "Green Monster" also means that the spark is hotter resulting in the ignition of more of the mixture that may not be ideal.

    The 17-6822 coil accomplishes something similar with its longer spark duration. A longer spark duration also means that more of the mixture will be exposed to the spark over time. It just doesn't have the higher voltage and hotter spark of the "Green Monster".

    The stock TCI needs 9 volts and other aftermarket systems need as much as 10 volts, which can result in hard starting when cold with a low battery. Some aftermarket system also require the engine to turn over at 200 RPM or they will not work at all. The PAMCO will work with 1 RPM at 5 volts. The engine also has to reverse 240 degrees to produce a kick back with the PAMCO, so it is very forgiving in a kick start situation. Points only have to back up as little as 1 degree to produce a kick back, as many of you would attest to!

    Anyway, back to the coils.

    Both coils will provide you with excellent all around service. The "Green Monster" does provide a better starting voltage and is recommended for use with the Iridium plugs in a more demanding situation. The "green monster" will also burn through carbon deposits and will generally produce a workable spark even in the worst conditions of plug fouling, over rich mixture or carbon tracked plugs. In other words, it will get you home with bad plugs.

    The higher voltage from the "Green Monster" also means you can run a wider gap for improved power and mileage.


    In any event, if you are looking to buy a system soon, Mike is out of stock for the 17-6810 coil which is part of the 14-0911 kit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
    helios79 likes this.
  10. pablohoney

    pablohoney XS650 Addict

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    Wowee! :yikes: Thanks for all the info. I do believe I will go with the high output set and wait for mikes to restock. This will be one educated buy. :thumbsup:
     
  11. damn hes a good salesman :D time to order one myself
     
  12. pamcopete

    pamcopete Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple

    pablohoney,

    OK. That would be a good choice. There is a down side to the "Green Monster", however. It is very unforgiving if you leave a spark plug wire disconnected. That 75,000 Volts has to go somewhere, so if it can't complete the circuit through the plugs, it will arc internally and short out the secondary winding, frying the coil. This will happen the first pulse of the first time you make this mistake. No second chances.

    The 17-6822 coil is more tolerant of mistakes like that because of its lower output voltage and you could probably get away with a couple of screw ups of leaving a wire off of the plug.

    Everything has its pluses and minuses!
     
  13. Pete: with the green monster, what if you have an issue like... I dunno, being silly, the ground electrode on the spark plugs gets abducted by aliens. If it can't complete the circuit that way, does it still get damaged? Or will it arc to ground somewhere along the wire?

    (i realize this is a ridiculously silly scenario - i'm just wondering)
     
  14. pablohoney

    pablohoney XS650 Addict

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    Thank you very much for that extra tidbit, I will be very careful about that and probably end up tattooing that on my hand. :laugh:
     
  15. pamcopete

    pamcopete Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple

    Sundie,

    75,000 Volts can jump a 1 inch gap. If the ground electrode was broken off, there is enough voltage to jump to the shell of the spark plug. The engine would probably keep running and there would be no damage.

    Likewise, if the plug wire cap developed an open condition, the spark would jump internally. Your clue would probably be hard starting, and maybe rough running, but still no damage done.

    The same is true if the wire came loose in the coil tower, as long as the resulting gap was less than an inch.

    So, there are many incidental things that could happen to create an open condition that would not harm the coil, but disconnecting the plug wire from the spark plug and allowing it to dangle more than an inch from the plug is where you will probably have instant and permanent damage to the coil, and that is something that basically would only happen if you deliberately pulled the wire off.

    Usually this happens when people pull the wire off for the "dead cylinder" carb syncing method. An alternative to pulling the plug wire off is to pull the vacuum barb hose or plug off instead. The resulting very lean mixture will kill the cylinder just as effectively as pulling a plug wire but without the danger of frying the coil.

    If you absolutely have to pull the plug wire for testing, then connect it to a spare plug that contacts the engine securely or even just ground the plug wire (if you have 5K caps).

    If you ever find that the plug wire is off one of the plugs just as you turn on the key, then DO NOT TURN THE KEY OFF. Just reach down and calmly connect the wire to the plug. This is done because the spark is created when you turn the key off, not on.

    Here is a video of the "Green Monster" on my test rig jumping a 1 inch gap: (works better the second time)

    Green Monster Jumps 1 inch gap
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  16. Pete, another silly question (which i'm not sure if i've asked before): Do you make a non-wasted spark version for the 360 crank angle firing? I know it's technically wasteful... But it would allow the use of dual coils.

    Secondly: Is the PAMCO ignition capable of driving two individual coils?
     
  17. pamcopete

    pamcopete Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple

    Sundie,

    I make a non wasted spark version for both the 270 and 277 rephased engines, but not the 360. There would be an advantage to that arrangement because you would eliminate the positive voltage that is on one of the outputs on a dual output coil. A positive voltage requires up to 40% more voltage to jump a given spark gap and that is one of the primary reasons that dual output coils are always high voltage "performance" coils. To provide enough voltage for the positive voltage fed plug.

    I should have mentioned this in my discussion above. It's another reason to use the "Green Monster" coil because one of the plugs always needs 40% more voltage than the other in a dual output wasted spark system.

    There is always the cost factor in deciding what to make. I sell the 270 and 277 systems for $119.95 compared to $89.95 for the wasted spark system. You also have to have two coils. The cost would be the same for a 360 system.

    The minimum primary resistance coil that the PAMCO can safely drive is 2.5 Ohms, so you would have to find two 5 Ohm single output coils if you wanted to drive two coils with the PAMCO, but in answer to your question, you could drive two coils with the PAMCO under those conditions.
     
    The650kid likes this.
  18. Sorry - i didn't see an answer for "can your unit drive two coils"?

    And yeah, the ability to unplug a wire and get both coils running negative voltage is what i'm thinking about.
     
  19. pamcopete

    pamcopete Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple

    Sundie,

    You must have been reading my answer as I was editing to include an answer for two coils.

    I think it would be difficult to find a single output coil with a 5 Ohm primary that produces as much voltage as the readily available dual output coils, which have more than enough voltage to overcome the 40% positive voltage penalty.
     

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