Why is the PAMCO better than points?

Well I owe you a beer and a quarter! I ordered the new spring set. Seems like it should do the trick. Is there a trick to making the unit less sticky? Carb cleaner maybe or something? It seems like the unit is pretty new ( the motor only has 5K original miles) but it is sticky and seems like it should be more free. Anyway I think the springs will work but if I can make it even better than I might as well. Thanks again sgallaty for your suggestion. I might ride this bike someday after all!


Cheers!
 
It may only have 5K miles on it but the parts were assembled like 30 years ago. The advance unit needs to be serviced and so does the rod that runs through the cam (cleaned and greased).
 
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Disassemble and clean, and relubricate with whatever is recommended - I don't know what that is off the top.

When grease gets old it can break down, or plasticize or get dust or crap in it.
 
The factory recommends grease with moly in it for the advance rod. I use VW CV joint grease because it has a very high moly content.
 
my experince with mikes springs is that there still to weak I cut the loop of one & formed a new one dont, get to much spring but, if you have a timing light you can watch the advance work,should be in the f mark at idle & progres to full advance around 3000rpm can be bit of juggling to get right but when right will pay dividends on how she runs good luck ride safe
 
sgallaty said:
EI = more reliable, stable, runs better and hotter (usually)
MI = serviceable

EI is better in general but when something breaks, you're probably not fixing it.
Click to expand...

well, PAMCO ain't EI. it's mostly MI. Spark advance is mechanical and uses the stock ATU from the points bikes (which has its own problems)

The PAMCO breaks the ground connection by hall effect instead of physically but otherwise is like a points/coil system.

The convenience advantage is there is pretty much no maintence required.
The performance advantage is from the hotter coil you put with it.
The downsides are that a real hot coil may fry the pamco if one of the spark plug caps isn't connected and an ATU can hang-up and create a high idle (weak springs usually) or can over-advance and cook a piston (wallowed out retainer-pin hole ususally)

I've run PAMCO for several years, and have had a plug cap off (not on purpose) several times with no ill effects. I've run it with PMA/no battery and it was a 1-kick starter.


It is solid, reliable, hassle-free, easy to install, has great customer service but is subect to all of the timing problems of a stock points bike, including the inexactitude of being timed off a chain driven cam shaft.

BTW I have a new Boyer in the box that I took off of a "crate" motor I bought. I put a PAMCO on that motor before I ever fired it up.
 
It's not just a better coil that gives you higher voltage to the plug ( if needed ), but with electronic ignitions, you can run more voltage on the primary side, which will allow more on the secondary side. With a points system, the primary side must run lower voltage because of the restrictions of a mechanical breaker and arc that could occur.
 
PetesPonies said:
It's not just a better coil that gives you higher voltage to the plug ( if needed ), but with electronic ignitions, you can run more voltage on the primary side, which will allow more on the secondary side. With a points system, the primary side must run lower voltage because of the restrictions of a mechanical breaker and arc that could occur.
Click to expand...

"you can run more voltage on the primary side" (with EI)

is that a factor that distinquishes PAMCO from other ignitions on an XS650?

your primary voltage is going to be whatever the battery or charging system puts out anyway isn't it?

for kick only/ no battery systems the advantage is to have LOW primary voltage requirement isn't it?
 
No burns, not how it works. Primarty voltage on a points syste, ( doesn't matter if its a bike or a car ) is going to be from 6-9V max. resistance in the primary circuit will determine exactly what it is, but 6-9 is a general range. If you have more voltage than that, the points will arc as they are pulling apart, even with the condenser trying to keep that from happening. An electronic is not limited by the mechanical points. Therefore, they can run full voltage, 14.4V or so and even use capacitors ( if designed such ) to drop a lot more voltage on the primary circuit. More on the primary means more in the secondary. This is just basic breaker points ignition verses electronic ignition facts. I used to teach Autoshop and did several lessons each year on this stuff. Nice to bring it out again sometimes :)
 
I have to agree with burns.

The basic electrical circuit for points or for a pamco is identical. If we disregard the small voltage drop across the ignition switch,kill switch and 2 fuses, the entire charging voltage/battery voltage will be dropped across the ignition coil. If there is 14 volts available then that will appear across the coil in each case.

Its a simple DC circuit and follows ohm's law and kirchoff's voltage law.

A typical points coil has a primary of about 4.5 ohms, while a pamco coil is closer to 3 ohms. The 4.5 ohms of the points coil will produce a smaller current flow, which prevents burning the points contacts. The pamco transistor can handle a larger current flow with the resulting higher output voltage.
 
If you have a typical ignition with say 13 volts, the only way to get down to 9 volts would be to have an additional resistance added to the circuit to drop 4 volts.

In fact back in the old days, some car manufacturers (chysler) would use a ballast resistor in series with the ignition coil. The start position on the key would bypass the ballast to give the full 13 volts to the coil. as the key was released to the run position, the ballast would come back into the circuit to give only 9 volts to the coil. (not exact voltages, just for typical examples).
 
how are you getting a voltage drop of 6 to 9 volts on a system with no ballast resistor like on these bikes?... some cars and trucks yes. I used a 3 ohm coil on my points setup that i previously ran with a ballast resistor from a dodge truck to bring the coil back to about 4.2 ohms. Then you will get a Voltage drop after the resistor...
 
PetesPonies said:
It's not just a better coil that gives you higher voltage to the plug ( if needed ), but with electronic ignitions, you can run more voltage on the primary side, which will allow more on the secondary side. With a points system, the primary side must run lower voltage because of the restrictions of a mechanical breaker and arc that could occur.
Click to expand...

The voltage to the coil will be whatever the battery voltage is minus any drop across the ignition switch, kill switch and connections, so typically the coil will have at least 13 Volts with an electrical system that produces 14.5 Volts regardless of whether it is a points system or an electronic system. So, it's not the voltage that makes the difference between a points system and an electronic system, it's the current that produces the magnetic field in the coil. A typical points system will have a coil with 5 Ohms of primary resistance, so the current through the coil when the points are closed will be 13/5 = 2.6 Amps. A typical electronic system will use a coil with 2.5 Ohms of primary resistance, so the current through the coil will be 13/2.5 = 5.2 Amps or twice the current of a points system and that is why an electronic system produces a higher voltage when the magnetic field collapses.

(Note: There are other differences between a points system and an electronic system, but the ability to use a coil with a lower primary resistance is the main advantage of an electronic system.)
 
Did any of you read this in my first post??

It's not just a better coil that gives you higher voltage to the plug ( if needed ), but with electronic ignitions, you can run more voltage on the primary side, which will allow more on the secondary side.
Click to expand...

I was speaking to electronic ignitions as a general. If there is no ballast resistor ( remember that a coil has internal resistance, ballast just adds to the overall resistance ) in a Yamaha ignition, then OK. But again I was speaking in general here and my info is factual. Ballast resistance is added to allow the voltage and current to be what is needed in the primary circuit for normal running, but have a way to bypass it for starting. If it did not, then starting would be more difficult as the current and voltage would be lower.

Pete, I left out amperage in my "mini " discussion because opening up that can of worms really gets complicated. If you understand it all, you can see why . right ? :)
 
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PetesPonies said:
Did any of you read this in my first post??



I was speaking to electronic ignitions as a general. If there is no ballast resistor ( remember that a coil have internal resistance, ballast just adds to the overall resistance ) in a Yamaha ignition, then OK. But again I was speaking in general here and my info is factual. Ballast resistance is added to allow the voltage and current to be what is needed in the primary circuit for normal running, but have a way to bypass it for starting. If it did not, then starting would be more difficult as the current would be very low.

Pete, I left out amperage in my "mini " discussion because opening up that can of worms really gets complicated. If you understand it all, you can see why . right ? :)
Click to expand...

very interesting discussion, but it still comes down to the performance advantage is from the hotter coil.
 
Burns NO !! :) yes a hotter coil helps, but you get more in the primary circuit which by itself, creates more in the secondary even if the coil was the same. Add to that a hotter coil and yes, better ignition. But also understand that secondary voltage is deceiving in that just because you have a 50KV coil doesn't mean it's generating 50KV. The voltage builds until there is enough to make the arc. In atmospheric pressure, that amount is relatively low. That's why when you are shocked by a plug wire or such, you didn't really get 50KV. You got a much lower voltage, depending on the resistance the electricity had to travel through. But in the combustion chamber where pressures are extremely high, it takes more voltage to create the arc. But if 20KV will do the job, adding a higher voltage coil does nothing. So adding a hotter coil is a way to make sure you have even electricity to do the job, but you may really never be using it :)
 
PetesPonies;

Your statement "But again I was speaking in general here and my info is factual". In one post you say 9 volts would be the maximum voltage found across a points type ignition coil. Several of us have explained to you that that is not true, but you seem to want to believe that it is true.

I think your basic knowledge of DC circuits is weak, and a little refresher course would be helpful.
 

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