Reed valve crank case breather (Heiden Tuning)

Water can collect due to condensation during the warm up period. This happens regardless of how blow by is dealt with.
When at operating temperature any water will be gaseous (a.k.a. steam) and therefore separates from the oil.
As Mr Charles13 explains above, an air (or more correctly, gas)/ oil separator allows the volatile elements to either go to atmosphere or fed into the inlet to be burnt. The oil can be fed back into the engine.
I've done this on my V Max for many years with no ill effect.

The condensation formed during warm up is one reason why I don't advise running a motor to 'warm it up'. Unless it gets to operating temperature any condensation and other normally volatile elements stay liquid which, over time, may cause damage.

gggGary said:

https://www.xs650.com/threads/crankcase-vent-using-a-reed-valve.61188/
@toglhot
How does the crankcase vapor know to separate out the water and "combustion byproducts' and send them to the crankcase vent?

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That's easy, gggGary, its called 'smart vapour'.

Max Midnight said:

Water can collect due to condensation during the warm up period. This happens regardless of how blow by is dealt with.
When at operating temperature any water will be gaseous (a.k.a. steam) and therefore separates from the oil.
As Mr Charles13 explains above, an air (or more correctly, gas)/ oil separator allows the volatile elements to either go to atmosphere or fed into the inlet to be burnt. The oil can be fed back into the engine.
I've done this on my V Max for many years with no ill effect.

The condensation formed during warm up is one reason why I don't advise running a motor to 'warm it up'. Unless it gets to operating temperature any condensation and other normally volatile elements stay liquid which, over time, may cause damage.

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So, by your reckoning no soot, carbon, acid, water vapour or other debris gets past the rings and mixes with the oil. Interesting! Oil just naturally goes black with age, who knew?

toglhot said:

That's easy, gggGary, its called 'smart vapour'.

So, by your reckoning no soot, carbon, acid, water vapour or other debris gets past the rings and mixes with the oil. Interesting! Oil just naturally goes black with age, who knew?

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Suggest you read my post again and let me know which bit you don't understand.

Max Midnight said:

Water can collect due to condensation during the warm up period. This happens regardless of how blow by is dealt with.
When at operating temperature any water will be gaseous (a.k.a. steam) and therefore separates from the oil.
As Mr Charles13 explains above, an air (or more correctly, gas)/ oil separator allows the volatile elements to either go to atmosphere or fed into the inlet to be burnt. The oil can be fed back into the engine.
I've done this on my V Max for many years with no ill effect.

The condensation formed during warm up is one reason why I don't advise running a motor to 'warm it up'. Unless it gets to operating temperature any condensation and other normally volatile elements stay liquid which, over time, may cause damage.

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Huh?

Max Midnight said:

Suggest you read my post again and let me know which bit you don't understand.

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No point in reading it again, it doesn't make sense.
So, what gas/oil seperator, the XS doesn't have one, nor does a reed valve.

That aside: swirling around in the combustion chamber you have: Gas, oil, water soot, acid, carbon and other fine debris from engine wear. Under compression, some of that debris laden gaseous matter passes by the rings, enters the crankcase, mixes with the sump oil being swirled and flung around by moving parts and mixes wiith the sump oil which, incidentally, is why engine oil needs to be changed regularly. However, not all that debris laden gaseous mixture mixes with the oil, any that does not mix with the the oil remains gaseous and under pressure escapes via the breather and is then fed to a catch can, into the inlet tract, onto the chain, or into the atmosphere. If you feed the catch from the catch can back into the motor you now have a continuous loop, whereby what oririginally exited the breather is now fed back to the sump, contaminating the oil. That renders the catch can superfluous and is just plain silly making no sense whatsover.

Now onto water:
Water turns to steam at 212f, true enough, and can be expelled via the exhaust valves. However before the exhaust valve opens, the upward movement of the piston compresses all that is in the combustion chamber. That is the fundemental design of the internal combustion engine: Compression/ignition. Under pressure some of the combustion chamber mix escapes via the rings, hence crankcase pressure! Under pressure, steam returns to its liquid state, some of the water mixed with the blowby will be steam, some liquid form. So, not all water in the combustion chamber will be expelled via the valves. Granted, it is a minute amount, but so to is the other blowby debris: acid, carbon, soot, wear particles gas oil and now also 'water'.

Perhaps you should understand a little more about what oil does. It has additives such as detergents, dispersants, corrosion and oxidation inhibitors plus alkaline additives to neutralise acidic oxidation products in the oil.

The windage cause by the rotation of the crank will cause some of the blow-by to be mixed with the oil vapours and allow the additives referred to above to do their job. If the oil is changed as recommended the blow-by elements you mention will be held within the oil and do no damage.

However a breather is required to reduce crankcase pressure and what is expelled is a mixture of combustion blow-by and oil vapour. As already explained the air/ oil separator allows the volatile elements to either go to atmosphere or fed into the inlet to be burnt. The oil can be fed back into the engine.
That oil is no different from what is already slushing around in the sump.

You will also note that the OE breather has a baffle which can be considered a rudimentary separator element.

You mention water (thanks for the lesson in how an IC engine works), even if some water was contained in the blow-by this would quickly turn back to its gaseous state in the sump.

Well, who kmew, oil has detergents, dispersants, corrosion and oxidation inhibitors plus alkaline additives to neutralise acidic oxidation products in the oil. Wow, that's really interesting. The problem is you think everyone is as silly as you are.! Trust me they are not...

So, lets look at some of the ridiculous thoughts you have:

'blow-by elements you mention will be held within the oil and do no damage'.
You are aware that very same oil you are talking about with blow by elements held within the oil is the oil that is circulated around the engine, blow by elements included, to lubricate moving parts. That's a very very interesting observation, totally absurd, but still interesting.

'However a breather is required to reduce crankcase pressure and what is expelled is a mixture of combustion blow-by and oil vapour. As already explained the air/ oil separator allows the volatile elements to either go to atmosphere or fed into the inlet to be burnt. The oil can be fed back into the engine. That oil is no different from what is already slushing around in the sump'
First off that oil seperator, as you call it, is not an oil seperator at all it is a simple strainer, no where near as fine as the sump filter and as such filters very little of the blowby products from the oil. So in fact is not that far removed from oil sloshing around in the sump'
Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that is the very reason it shouldn't be returned to the sump. Why on earth would anyone put dirty, contaminated oil into their sump???

'if some water was contained in the blow-by this would quickly turn back to its gaseous state in the sump'.
I doubt that very much, the heat within the sump is not sufficient to turn water to steam. But assuming it,did, steam is still not something you want inside your engine.

That said, I grow tired of your nonsense, but good news, I have found someone else to add to the idiot list.

I love reading a read a well thought argument, sad that the post above isn't one.

toglhot said:

Well, who kmew, oil has detergents, dispersants, corrosion and oxidation inhibitors plus alkaline additives to neutralise acidic oxidation products in the oil. Wow, that's really interesting.

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Glad you found that interesting and that you have learned something...but I have my doubts

toglhot said:

'blow-by elements you mention will be held within the oil and do no damage'.
You are aware that very same oil you are talking about with blow by elements held within the oil is the oil that is circulated around the engine, blow by elements included, to lubricate moving parts. That's a very very interesting observation, totally absurd, but still interesting.

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It is sad that you don't appear to have grasped the basics of the multiple purposes oil serves and how it protects the engine. Where do you think the gaseous blow-by goes to?

toglhot said:

First off that oil seperator, as you call it, is not an oil seperator at all it is a simple strainer, no where near as fine as the sump filter and as such filters very little of the blowby products from the oil. So in fact is not that far removed from oil sloshing around in the sump'
Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that is the very reason it shouldn't be returned to the sump. Why on earth would anyone put dirty, contaminated oil into their sump???

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Strainer (noun): an object with holes which you pour a liquid through in order to separate the liquid from the solids in it.
That's something else you got wrong.
You say 'So in fact is not that far removed from oil sloshing around in the sump' if that is the case to all intents and purposes why not return it?
Why do racing engines do exactly that when a catch tank would probably suffice?

toglhot said:

'if some water was contained in the blow-by this would quickly turn back to its gaseous state in the sump'.
I doubt that very much, the heat within the sump is not sufficient to turn water to steam. But assuming it,did, steam is still not something you want inside your engine.

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I guess water in your little world boils at a different temperature to where normal folk live if it can stay liquid at typical sump temperatures of around 230 to 260F (110-126.6°C). (another basic error)

toglhot said:

That said, I grow tired of your nonsense, but good news, I have found someone else to add to the idiot list.

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Sorry, I'll try and use monosyllable words in future if it helps?

toglhot said:

Well, who kmew, oil has detergents, dispersants, corrosion and oxidation inhibitors plus alkaline additives to neutralise acidic oxidation products in the oil. Wow, that's really interesting. The problem is you think everyone is as silly as you are.! Trust me they are not...

Click to expand...

toglhot said:

So, lets look at some of the ridiculous thoughts you have:

'blow-by elements you mention will be held within the oil and do no damage'.
You are aware that very same oil you are talking about with blow by elements held within the oil is the oil that is circulated around the engine, blow by elements included, to lubricate moving parts. That's a very very interesting observation, totally absurd, but still interesting.

'However a breather is required to reduce crankcase pressure and what is expelled is a mixture of combustion blow-by and oil vapour. As already explained the air/ oil separator allows the volatile elements to either go to atmosphere or fed into the inlet to be burnt. The oil can be fed back into the engine. That oil is no different from what is already slushing around in the sump'
First off that oil seperator, as you call it, is not an oil seperator at all it is a simple strainer, no where near as fine as the sump filter and as such filters very little of the blowby products from the oil. So in fact is not that far removed from oil sloshing around in the sump'
Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that is the very reason it shouldn't be returned to the sump. Why on earth would anyone put dirty, contaminated oil into their sump???

'if some water was contained in the blow-by this would quickly turn back to its gaseous state in the sump'.
I doubt that very much, the heat within the sump is not sufficient to turn water to steam. But assuming it,did, steam is still not something you want inside your engine.

That said, I grow tired of your nonsense, but good news, I have found someone else to add to the idiot list.

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Ignorance is bliss they say.

Charles13 said:

Ignorance is bliss they say.

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He must be exceptionaly happy then?

I'd say you are both partially correct.
Blow-by gases contain water(super saturated steam), Nitric Oxides of various flavors, carbon of a choice of 31 flavors, nitrogen as N2, CO.
It gets into the crankcase partially mixed and SATURATED into the oil itself. 212F will not expel "water" from the oil caused by blow-by.
Mixture is perfect for causing nitric acid.
It(blow-by) will kill the oil quality in time and is much long lived, if the exposure of these gases is minimized.
Draft tubes with oil separators were used. Pulls a slight vacuum while traveling.

Since first and later PCV, oil life increased 40% based on T.A.N. and viscosity.
This is irrespective of newer/better oils since the early '70's.

Example PCV system sweeps 1-2 CFM at max flow and holds 1-5" H2O vacuum at min. flow. on a 5-6 liter V8.

cliff

So nice to have experts that know absolutely everything on hand.

toglhot said:

So nice to have experts that know absolutely everything on hand.

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True, just a shame that some don't have the nous to understand what they are saying....

It was my job. $155k/yr to know.

BTW any thoughts on the Briggs engine CCV design?(flatheads)
I am guessing sim. to Heiden?

cliff

Looks like we are all getting along better now.

c

Never happen!

Fitted Lads