1976 XS650 restoration and rebuild, advice and help welcomed!

[fredintoon]

Hi George and congratulations on the first start.
The video seemed to show the headlight being on before the engine fired.
Did you turn it on or did it light up when you turned the key on or when you hooked up the battery?
I did notice that the headlight brightened with revs which shows that the alternator is working.
But the headlight staying on regardless ain't good and will suck your battery flat real quick.
Hopefully your battery will be OK after it's recharged.
What I'd recommend for test and static run use is to connect your bike's electrics to a car battery
via jumper cables.

 

[GeorgeOC]

Hi George and congratulations on the first start.
The video seemed to show the headlight being on before the engine fired.
Did you turn it on or did it light up when you turned the key on or when you hooked up the battery?
I did notice that the headlight brightened with revs which shows that the alternator is working.
But the headlight staying on regardless ain't good and will suck your battery flat real quick.
Hopefully your battery will be OK after it's recharged.
What I'd recommend for test and static run use is to connect your bike's electrics to a car battery
via jumper cables.

Now that is an idea [test start w/ car battery...] I will use that. Thanks for the comment on the alternator, that is a relief. The headlight is unfortunately on 100% when the key is in position 1. In position 2, it goes out. When in position 1, the low/high beam switch works, but the on/off for the HL does not... In the meantime, I hope I haven't crippled the battery in use here...

 

[MaxPete]

Ok - there is something odd with your headlight George.

The switch on the RH handlebar should control it at all times (engine running or not). Also, my '76 does not have a "reserve"lighting module - I think those were introduced in 1977. In any event, I'm pretty sure that then even in the later bikes, the headlight did not come on until the engine was actually running.

I don't understand why the headlight is on all the time - but that certainly points to a problem.

Hmmmmm.

 

[5twins]

Yes, it appears you have power to your headlight any time the key is on. Power should go to the on-off switch, through that to the hi-lo switch, then on to the headlight. It looks like you may have power going directly to the hi-lo switch.

You're not using a MikesXS wiring harness by any chance are you? My buddy put one on his '80 and now his headlight is on all the time too, lol.

 

[MaxPete]

FWIW - Lucille's wiring and switches (1976 XS650C) were toast when I got her and so I bought all new wiring from MikesXS / XS650 Direct as well as all new switches (both sides) - and except for the fact that the switches were 1977 models (that is all they stock I guess) - it all works fine.

More specifically, there were no difficulties with the headlight circuit. All of my challenges in adapting the 1977 MikesXS switches to the 1976 bike and wiring harness were related to the turn signals because the '77s and later bikes have self-cancelling signals and the '76 and earlier machines have none of the requisite sensors or electronics.

That required a little wiring jiggery-pokery inside the headlight bucket - but George and I went through all of that already in a couple of video chat sessions using our iPads.

I suspect he has a wiring error in the headlight circuit that will simply require a few bullet connectors inside the headlight bucket to be moved.

Incidentally, those iPad sessions worked really well - as far as I can tell - and they were a great way to work on a project collaboratively over a long distance.

Pete

 

[Mailman]

Video Guru Chat, I love it!
" It appears to be the wiring in your headlight bucket"

 

[fredintoon]

Now that is an idea [test start w/ car battery...] I will use that. Thanks for the comment on the alternator, that is a relief. The headlight is unfortunately on 100% when the key is in position 1. In position 2, it goes out. When in position 1, the low/high beam switch works, but the on/off for the HL does not... In the meantime, I hope I haven't crippled the battery in use here...

Hi George,
I guess that either you wired the lights up wrong or you have a defective switch..
The ignition switch is OFF when the slot is at 11o'clock/5o'clock .
Inserting the key and turning it one click clockwise so the key is at 12o'clock
should turn everything on except the headlight and will lock the key in place.
Note that your bike has a separate switch to turn the headlight on.
Later bikes turn the headlight on automatically via a relay when the alternator makes power.
OTOH if you turn the key one click anti-clockwise instead
(OK, my '84 has two left clicks, first click locks the steering, second click also turns on the tail light
{mandatory lit tail light for nighttime parking in some jurisdictions} and that'll suck your battery flat
if you don't notice it, eh?)
Dunno if your '76 has a steering lock or not but if you powered the headlight from the left-click position
that'd explain what's going on.
And yeah, no matter where the headlight gets it's power the Hi/Lo switch will still work.
If your battery was re-charged soon enough it should be fine.
Leaving my bike's ignition turned on for a week sent my battery to the re-cycle bin at the battery store.

 

[5twins]

Maybe the very late models (or the Canadian ones) are different but the earlier key switches only turn right (clockwise) as far as I know. One click for "On", two clicks for "Park". There is a steering lock but on a Standard it's on the side of the neck, not operated by the ignition switch. You must remove the key from the ignition and stick it in the lock on the side of the neck.

 

[GeorgeOC]

Maybe the very late models (or the Canadian ones) are different but the earlier key switches only turn right (clockwise) as far as I know. One click for "On", two clicks for "Park". There is a steering lock but on a Standard it's on the side of the neck, not operated by the ignition switch. You must remove the key from the ignition and stick it in the lock on the side of the neck.

Thanks fredintoon, 5twins. As 5twins describes matches my situation. There is a manual steering lock in at the neck, but isnt wired to anything. The orientation of the key position is also same, one click clockwise for 'on,' and a second click for 'park.'

 

[GeorgeOC]

Yes, it appears you have power to your headlight any time the key is on. Power should go to the on-off switch, through that to the hi-lo switch, then on to the headlight. It looks like you may have power going directly to the hi-lo switch.

You're not using a MikesXS wiring harness by any chance are you? My buddy put one on his '80 and now his headlight is on all the time too, lol.

Yes. It's a harness from Mikes... Has your buddy attempted to fix?

 

[5twins]

He's working on it. His is a bit more complicated system. He has no on-off switch but does have that headlight safety relay. It's supposed to turn the headlight on only after the alternator starts putting out a charge. His headlight should be out with just the key on, bike not running, but it comes on with the key. Either the key is triggering his safety relay or it is sending power directly to the headlight (or hi-lo switch). That's what he needs to figure out. He already tried another relay and it does the same thing so we're thinking it must be a wiring glitch.

 

[fredintoon]

Yes. It's a harness from Mikes...

Hi George,
- - - and it's on to creative re-connectivity.
Disconnect everything except the big fat wires that feed the starter.
Set your multimeter to the lowest reading that'll show you 12V. On most it's 20V, on some it's 50V
Use the meter to find the hot wire from the 20Amp fuse.
Re-set the meter to read Ohms. Use the meter to find the switch connection that'll power either the RUN or the PARK connections.
Connect the hot wire to it.
By observation, find the wire that powers the ignition. Connect it to the switch RUN connection.
Pull the plugs, connect the plugs to the plug wires, lay the plugs on the cylinder head, turn the key on and kick the bike over to see if you have sparks.
If that works do likewise with the rest of the wiring. I'm not sure I'd even bother with the PARK setting.
And keep a record of whatever colors your harness uses because they may not be what the wiring diagram tells you.

 

[MaxPete]

OK - so, here is more input from the cheap seats....

GEORGE: with all due respect to Fred - I recommend that you do not unplug everything....quite yet. You've got an issue in one circuit of many and unplugging everything just seems like a slightly premature move IMO.

I went through all of this '77 switch to '76 bike malarky last year and it all worked out just fine (photos of my switches are attached below) but unfortunately at the time I did it, I made rather poor notes on the task. Soooo...when I went through it with George in the iPad sessions a couple of months ago - my explanations may not have been as clear as would have been optimal.

The notes that I DO have all made perfect sense at the time but reading them now, I find that they are....somewhat....unclear.

Dammit.

I will pull Lucille's headlight bucket apart tonight and try to document this danged thing in a better fashion - as in addition to George's difficulty, another Forum member wrote last night and asked me about the adaptation of a Mike's '77 switch to a '76 bike and harness.

Stand-by please.

Pete

PS - as you can see, my bike (a Canadian Standard as far as I can tell) has the 3-position key switch:
- OFF;
- ON;
- some other damned thing the purpose of which is not clear to me.
I guess that is "PARK" - but I cannot imagine what it is for because none of my lights are on in that position unless I turn on the lighting switch on the RH handlebar - and there is no friggin' way I would leave my keys in the bike and walk away from it with the lights turned on.

 

[robinc]

Hey Pete, IIRC, the 'Park' position on my 77D puts the tailight on, with the key removed. Dunno, but figured, ok 'Park' means tailight is on to make bike visible if parked on the side of the road.

Never done it other than check to see if it happens after reading about this somewhere?

 

[MaxPete]

hmmmmm.....OK - I will have to explore that Robin.

 

[GeorgeOC]

Thanks guys for all the comments. I've got the HL back off the bike now... The headlight mini 3 wire connector has 3 colors. Black, Green, and Yellow. Here's what I've got going on.

Black > to ground.

Yellow > goes to a pigtail. One connection to the high beam warning bulb. The other, to the H/L beam dimmer (in the left handlebar switch, which is a 77' replacement from MikesXS).

Green > Connects to a Light Green, coming from the left switch.

From one of @MaxPete and I's chats, we had connected two wires coming from the left switch a Yellow/red, and Yellow/black (mis match between a 76' bike/harness and the 77' switch.) As I have been writing this post, I tried connecting them to the Green lead from the HL. Yellow/red nothing. Yellow/black, TADA! The on/off switch for the HL now works. Left and right, front and rear signals also seem to work fine, as does the high low beam.

It seems the Light green and the Yellow/red might be the unnecessary wires when using that 77' replacement switch, with 76' wiring.

But... She still wont start. I have the car battery jumped in for test fire. The starter is working, but I am not sure if I have spark... The motor thump thumps, but seemingly no combustion. Both fuses are in tact.

First question... Get out your amateur alarms! Is the choke on, or off in this photo?

 

[robinc]

That's ON George, choke (enhancer) lever is pushed down, plungers are pulled up. Keep at it, you'll get it sorted out.

You may already know this but would rather repeat something you know rather than ignore it. If you are jumping from a car battery, car is not running, you're just using the battery.

BTW, Nice clean looking carbs!

 

[GeorgeOC]

That's ON George, choke (enhancer) lever is pushed down, plungers are pulled up. Keep at it, you'll get it sorted out.

You may already know this but would rather repeat something you know rather than ignore it. If you are jumping from a car battery, car is not running, you're just using the battery.

BTW, Nice clean looking carbs!

Thanks @robinc just what I needed regarding the choke. So, jumpered in from the car battery... (and thank you for the 'not running' reinforcement.) Had the plugs pulled to see if I had spark... Nothing. I guess I will need to start working my way back through the ignition circuit. Doh!

I am running a PAMCO with e-advancer, Dual Output Points type Ignition Coil, Electrosport ESR350 combo R/R.

Where o where to begin...

 

[robinc]

Hey no problem George.

Have you disconnected or changed anything since you last had spark?
I have sometimes found when troubleshooting that I have to stop and ask myself, "OK, what did you do last?"
That question in and of itself often leads me to discover where I messed something up without realizing it, creating my new problem.

Sorry my bikes are all stock ignition systems so can't offer any suggestions there, but I'm sure one of the gurus will chime in here with some suggestions for you. My sumday wishlist includes those upgrades.

Hang in there, we're pulling for ya!

 

[GeorgeOC]

Thank you robinc, much appreciated. I have only swapped a wire in the switch > headlight mystery.... Which resulted in a seemingly functional headlight switch. Its the ignition circuit that seems to be in fritz...