1976 XS650 restoration and rebuild, advice and help welcomed!

[GeorgeOC]

carb/fuel issue, You think ? Very easy to drain carb bowls and test petcocks . Hope for you its a fuel issue (easy) . Electrical issues just annoy me so much I wanna use a tazer on my bike ! Hang in there George

Thank you TimeMachine. Petcocks are new, but that of course doesnt mean guaranteed success of course... Just that I am less suspicious of them. I have read the carb guides, but I think its time for a re-read and some homework. I figured though the old girl would at least fire up again with the spark evident. But Ill get there...

 

[GeorgeOC]

I'm guilty of a shot of starting fluid now and then but mostly on motors without carbs, to "hear em run" before pulling out the money gun on rehab projects. I like the visual inline spark testers.

Mr. Gary, what is the best way to administer a dose of starting fluid? I am running stock intake system fwiw...

 

[azman857]

I sometimes use some carb cleaner in the cool mornings to get the SG started. In the Air filter opening for a second or two on one side.

 

[MaxPete]

Ahhhh - now we may be getting somewhere.

George - you said that it "won't turnover".

To me, that has little or nothing to do with the matter of the spark plugs. "Turn over" means that the engine is cranking (rotating) - not necessarily that the plugs are firing. An engine "turns over" before it STARTS and begins to RUN (those are the widely used terms and they are not equivalent).

Sorry to be a pain, but we really need to be clear about terminology here.

There are a lot of things needed for an engine to start and run, but my old auto shop teacher used to simplify the requirement down to three key elements:
1) SPIN (the engine must rotate "(turn over") - either by means of the electric starter motor or for an XS650 it could be by means of the kick start);
2) SPARK (the spark plugs must fire strongly - at the right time);
3) SPIRIT (the fuel system must provide the correct mixture of fuel and air to the cylinders).

So...SPIN, SPARK and SPIRIT - all related, but separate processes and not the same. It seems that you have SPIRIT and it seems that SPARK is there, at least sometimes.

What about SPIN? If the engine cranks/rotates/turns over (pick a term) only when it is connected to a car battery, then your Shorai battery may not be strong enough or you may have a high resistance contact in the starter circuit. Here are some questions on that matter:
- Are all of the main starter circuit connections free of paint/powder coat?
I mean the big wires that go from the battery to the solenoid and on to the starter motor AND the battery ground wire where it bolts to the frame near the battery too.
- Have you tried the kick starter?
- Have you turned the headlight OFF when starting?

I wonder if your starter safety relay (SSR) is working properly. Does the horn work? If not, then either the handlebar grounding is poor or the SSR may need to be cleaned. That is an easy 15 minute job - I can tell you how to do it.

On the matter of the fuse: I think that the correct main fuse is a 20 amp - but unless it blows, that really does not matter. If a 15 amp fuse is not blowing, then that is not your problem.

Hmmmmm. Don't worry, we'll get there.

Pete

 

[robinc]

Hey George, just a suggestion. Looks like a lot of your problem might be related to a weak/bad battery. You can keep jumping from a car battery for sure, but why not take to your battery to an Auto Parts center or bike shop and have them do a load test. This will confirm one way or another the condition of your battery.

Edit: They will do this test free of charge so you have nothing to lose but a bit of time, and will gain piece of mind knowing for sure what's up with your battery.

 

[robinc]

I like the visual inline spark testers.

Oh, I like that gggGary, another tool to buy!

 

[MaxPete]

Indeed - where do you get these?

 

[robinc]

Princess Auto has them Pete, just checked....lol.
$9.99.

 

[GeorgeOC]

Ahhhh - now we may be getting somewhere.

George - you said that it "won't turnover".

To me, that has little or nothing to do with the matter of the spark plugs. "Turn over" means that the engine is cranking (rotating) - not necessarily that the plugs are firing. An engine "turns over" before it STARTS and begins to RUN (those are the widely used terms and they are not equivalent).

Sorry to be a pain, but we really need to be clear about terminology here.

There are a lot of things needed for an engine to start and run, but my old auto shop teacher used to simplify the requirement down to three key elements:
1) SPIN (the engine must rotate "(turn over") - either by means of the electric starter motor or for an XS650 it could be by means of the kick start);
2) SPARK (the spark plugs must fire strongly - at the right time);
3) SPIRIT (the fuel system must provide the correct mixture of fuel and air to the cylinders).

So...SPIN, SPARK and SPIRIT - all related, but separate processes and not the same. It seems that you have SPIRIT and it seems that SPARK is there, at least sometimes.

What about SPIN? If the engine cranks/rotates/turns over (pick a term) only when it is connected to a car battery, then your Shorai battery may not be strong enough or you may have a high resistance contact in the starter circuit. Here are some questions on that matter:
- Are all of the main starter circuit connections free of paint/powder coat?
I mean the big wires that go from the battery to the solenoid and on to the starter motor AND the battery ground wire where it bolts to the frame near the battery too.
- Have you tried the kick starter?
- Have you turned the headlight OFF when starting?

I wonder if your starter safety relay (SSR) is working properly. Does the horn work? If not, then either the handlebar grounding is poor or the SSR may need to be cleaned. That is an easy 15 minute job - I can tell you how to do it.

On the matter of the fuse: I think that the correct main fuse is a 20 amp - but unless it blows, that really does not matter. If a 15 amp fuse is not blowing, then that is not your problem.

Hmmmmm. Don't worry, we'll get there.

Pete

Thanks Pete! No pain at all. I appreciate the guidance! Let me see if I can clarify. The engine does spin/rotate freely. I do have spark. Spirit, I am sure that I need to do some carb fine tuning. Headlight has been off while trying to start. The circuit connections mentioned to the solenoid and battery ground are clear and shiny bare metal. Kickstarting has not started (maybe I need more uuumph!) I swapped in a 20a fuse, thanks for that one! Horn works...

The SSR is a new NOS unit. While assumption is generally dangerous... it should be in good order. Hmm hmm hmm.

 

[MaxPete]

Hmmmm, indeed.

 

[GeorgeOC]

A quick update ya'll... Hope everyone enjoyed their weekends. I am still stumbling, but know the following:
Battery load tested good. Spark is evident. Ground locations are good. I turned the throttle adj screw in an additional turn. But no luck yet. I ran across a thread where @pamcopete weighed in on a situation where a guy installed an e-advance, but couldn't fire up. He suggested a specific plug. Currently installed are NGK B8ES. Pamcopete recommended BP7ES to that gentleman. I am going to throw a set in and see what happens.

 

[5twins]

That may help some. The 8 is a heat range colder than recommended and is also a standard style plug. The "BP" type has a projected tip. It sticks down into the combustion chamber a little more and it's more exposed electrode supposedly gives a better burn.

The BP7ES is the recommended plug for these. If you ask for it at the auto parts store by that number, they may say they don't have it. Instead, ask for it by it's stock #1034 .....



Notice how the electrode hangs out of the bottom of the threaded portion a little bit. This is what's meant by "projected tip". If you compare it side by side with one of those B8's you're currently using, you'll see the difference.

 

[GeorgeOC]

That may help some. The 8 is a heat range colder than recommended and is also a standard style plug. The "BP" type has a projected tip. It sticks down into the combustion chamber a little more and it's more exposed electrode supposedly gives a better burn.

The BP7ES is the recommended plug for these. If you ask for it at the auto parts store by that number, they may say they don't have it. Instead, ask for it by it's stock #1034 .....


http://s1020.photobucket.com/user/b...nition/CorrectSparkPlugs_zps1b3a0ab1.jpg.html
Notice how the electrode hangs out of the bottom of the threaded portion a little bit. This is what's meant by "projected tip". If you compare it side by side with one of those B8's you're currently using, you'll see the difference.

5twins, great to know! Appreciate the education...

 

[MaxPete]

I can see how a certain plug might help the bike to run better - but it is hard to imagine that it would make the difference between running and not running....

 

[GeorgeOC]

Pete, I fear you are right...!

 

[MaxPete]

Hmmmmm.

 

[GeorgeOC]

Pete, you mentioned there might be some possible higher resistance than ideal in the electrical system.

In an effort to troubleshoot all angles, can you think of what that could take form as? Ill see if I can scratch anything along those lines off the list...!

 

[TimeMachine]

@ work, are you sure valve adj & compression are good ? Do even the "Bob Kelly" thumb compression check while changing plugs ? Seems you have covered all the "spin, spirit,spark " stuff over. Do you feel good compression ?

 

[GeorgeOC]

@ work, are you sure valve adj & compression are good ? Do even the "Bob Kelly" thumb compression check while changing plugs ? Seems you have covered all the "spin, spirit,spark " stuff over. Do you feel good compression ?

I should double check the valves... but the Bob Kelly thumb test is passing with flying colors!

 

[MaxPete]

Hi George: I was specifically thinking of pain under the main ground lead from the battery to the frame - or another "painted" ground connection somewhere else. On the +12v side - I'm sure you have made certain that all of the bullet connectors are nice and clean and fit snugly.

Pete