Hydraulic Clutch Conversion - Any Interest?

[bobadame]

The stock levers on many Japanese bikes including the XS are excessively hard to pull and to hold for long periods of time like those never changing traffic lights that only go green for a few seconds.

And then there's those of us with Auther Itus and old hands...

Why are they hard to pull? Is the leverage wrong?

 

[hooktool]

Sorry, I don't get it. Is the stock clutch lever xscessively (sorry couldn't resist) hard to pull? The only advantage I can see to the hydraulic setup is that you don't have the friction caused by the cable moving through it's housing. The motion ratio still needs to be the same whether it's mechanical or hydraulic. You pull the hand lever X degrees and at the oposite end the clutch disengages. Did Yamaha get the ratio wrong?

Even with good cable setup, there's some flex/play in the worm gear/release arm. There is often a bit of clutch drag, and Yamaha (and owners) modified the cable attachment point on the release lever. More travel on the pushrod=harder pull, but less drag. There are threads on the release mods.

The hydraulic clutch gives good leverage with max clutch rod travel. Plus it looks cool.

John

 

[dwyatt]

Worm gear sucks. Once there's the slightest wear (happened 30 years ago), the worm gear cocks slightly and picks up a lot of extra friction due to binding. Hydraulics have better leverage.

You guys are over analyzing this, order parts off eBay, spend 1/2 hour in the garage smoothing off the mounting area with a grinder, drill and tap mount holes, cut and fit a new push rod from alumiunum rod you can buy at Home Deport, take 5 minutes to eyeball the length with the new parts on, post pictures on this website. Have a beer and admire your work, while everyone goes on and on like you're a genius......

Like John just said, looks cool.

 

[bobadame]

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like a bit of a wooden watch in there.
I still don't buy "hydraulics have better leverage", they do have less friction for sure. I didn't know there was a worm gear involved. No wonder.

 

[ReycleBill]

Worm gear sucks. Once there's the slightest wear (happened 30 years ago), the worm gear cocks slightly and picks up a lot of extra friction due to binding. Hydraulics have better leverage.

You guys are over analyzing this, order parts off eBay, spend 1/2 hour in the garage smoothing off the mounting area with a grinder, drill and tap mount holes, cut and fit a new push rod from alumiunum rod you can buy at Home Deport, take 5 minutes to eyeball the length with the new parts on, post pictures on this website. Have a beer and admire your work, while everyone goes on and on like you're a genius......

Like John just said, looks cool.

Won't the aluminum rod wear quickly?

 

[ReycleBill]

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like a bit of a wooden watch in there.
I still don't buy "hydraulics have better leverage", they do have less friction for sure. I didn't know there was a worm gear involved. No wonder.

The explanation that dwyatt gave makes sense. I repaired a clutch on a '74 Sportster the other day and the clutch actuator was more than twice the size of the one on my XS and worked like new. And the pull was easy as pie.

I would like to beef up the clutches on my XS and reduce the size of the rear gear by a couple more teeth but I don't think my hand can handle more clutch with the current arrangement.

 

[gggGary]

A bolt on kit is a good plan. I just got a complete used hydraulic setup and am thinking through the best way to mount it up. It would be nice to loose the three mounting bolts and have a bit cleaner looking install. The used fab up is a reasonable level 2 or 3 DIY but not for the average "walmart tool kit" kind O guy. Would like to hear and see various push rod options. I think the true "trick set up" is a pull hydraulic clutch on on the RH cover but that is more involved for sure!

 

[ReycleBill]

I agree with gggGary.

Also, one of the reasons so many of us are willing to wait for Hugh is that we already know his work and know he'll stand behind his product. If I buy something off ebay and it isn't application specific then we've no help if something goes wrong.

 

[Cafe-Dave]

Any update, Hugh?

Thanks.

 

[Punkskalar]

I agree with gggGary.

Also, one of the reasons so many of us are willing to wait for Hugh is that we already know his work and know he'll stand behind his product. If I buy something off ebay and it isn't application specific then we've no help if something goes wrong.

Well, I've got good news and bad news... Lets go bad first. I have tested 5 different slave cylinders that I was less than impressed with. Fit, finish, and function just aren't up to my standards. So I have re-evaluated my look at this setup, and am ordering new parts to try a whole new setup.

I wanted something user friendly to install, with minimal modifications to the side covers needed. I also want the setup to be able to be removed and go back to stock should someone so choose. That is a tall order I know, but I've got something figured out

I know this has taken a while, But I won't put something on the market that I wouldn't stand behind... Being a small shop really makes it tough of course, so stay tuned

 

[TeeCat]

Hugh, thanks for the update. I feel quite sure that any purchasers will benefit from the high bar that your goods have to meet before they go to market. And user-friendly is sure a plus for a schlubb like me.

Meanwhile, I'll get some hours on my new clutch lever and perch... only just installed them a few weeks ago, so I may as well use 'em...

TC

 

[member3480]

Hey Hugh
There are just so many different ones out there and a kit would be very cool but maybe did you look at just doing the complete cover with the kit installed i think there are a lot of guys who may be in the market for the complete package. I bought one off the internet from a guy in FL about a year ago and it worked but just kept loosing pressure and i had it setup for a foot clutch and was cool but just could not depend on it so i went back to manual foot clutch but i would love to get one of yours when done. If there is anyone going to make it happen its you.
By the way good luck with the new shop.

 

[Punkskalar]

Ok folks!

Currently testing the latest setup... Been riding it for the last few hours, testing, beating on it, etc... Unfortunately, the bike I am testing it on was all original with 13K or so, and the clutch is slipping. I am swapping the heavy duty plates/disks and 1 piece clutch rod along with the upgraded springs and bearings to see how it does this afternoon.

Stay tuned So far so good!

 

[MiniDanzig]

pumped to see how this goes. now if you could only figure out how to do it and keep the MC off the bars then we'd be in business!!

 

[Capt_Zoom]

removed for my own stupidity

 

[Cafe-Dave]

pumped to see how this goes. now if you could only figure out how to do it and keep the MC off the bars then we'd be in business!!

He doesn't have to. BMW did it on the /6's up to 1980, cable actuated master cylinder is hidden under the tank. It is big, but I can see how to make radial pump sportbike brake or clutch master into a much smaller unit.

"The front brake's cable activation system for all BMW "/6" series bikes, including the R90s, is also unique. The master cylinder is located on the top tube of the frame below the tank with a standard brake fluid reservoir and is activated by a cable from the handle bar brake lever. The argument was that this system offered greater protection for the master cylinder in the event of a crash."

http://i.imgur.com/GDPFo.png
http://www.advrider.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=247656&d=1296695437

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_R90S

There you go.

 

[gggGary]

Read the reviews from owners of that system, they aren't umm "glowing".

 

[Cafe-Dave]

They are rather crappy, make no doubt about that. Big, ugly, heavy, tough to work on (compared to a cable or hydraulic only)

 

[Cafe-Dave]

Ok folks!

Currently testing the latest setup... Been riding it for the last few hours, testing, beating on it, etc... Unfortunately, the bike I am testing it on was all original with 13K or so, and the clutch is slipping. I am swapping the heavy duty plates/disks and 1 piece clutch rod along with the upgraded springs and bearings to see how it does this afternoon.

Stay tuned So far so good!

This is great to hear Punk. Very cool.

 

[Punkskalar]

I stayed late last night in the shop installing a whole new clutch on the test XS. 1 Piece Rod, new HP Friction Plates, Upgraded Throw-Out Bearing, Stiffer Springs and new Hardware... Just took a quick test spin (it is 34 degrees here by the river today!) and without even adjusting it any, this thing is sweet.

The setup I have in this bike should be the "stiffest" clutch most any average XS user would have, and though the lever pull is firm, it works like a charm... The new clutch grabs like crazy, I am spinning the rear tire slamming into 2nd gear, and the Hydraulic clutch seems to be loving it...

I've got 5 people lined up for a free conversion, in order to do some testing on various bikes. I am going to have to keep the hydraulic hose at 50" long (similar to stock length) for now. I am hoping to see how it reacts to various folks setups, and then release it to the rest of you XS650 goons

Now that I have tested and found these components to work well, let's see how the other's do. I'll try to get some decent pricing up for you folks... Should be able to stay well within the original budget