New Rider, Old XS650 - A Begining

Shadow24v

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Hello all,

Figured I've lurked enough the last couple months, so i registered.

Any input would be welcome! :)

I've wanted to learn to ride for a few years, but while living at home during college was not condusive to getting a bike or motorcycle endorsement (gotta love the MOM factor). On a visit back home earlier this year (from Ohio to CT), I was talking to my neighbor where i grew up. He is an avid biker and had something like 5 different bikes in his garage and has been riding as long as i can remember. He recently got a nice Yamaha V-Star and was selling some of his old bikes. I asked about a late 80's Yamaha 800 that he had, but he wouldn't sell it to me because in his opinion, it was too much bike for a brand new rider (didn't even have my permit at that time nor had i EVER been on a motorcycle). He did say that he'd GIVE me an old 650 he got for free about 5 years ago though...on 1 condition. I had to get the OK from MOM (even though I'm 25) as he said "it's too easy for her to stick the shotgun out of your side door and shoot my bedroom!".

So i went back to Ohio after my visit and contemplated how to convince mom te give the OK. Called her a couple weeks later and got all geared up for a knock down drag out debate on getting the bike. To my utter surprise the first response was "yeah, he mentioned it. We'll be out in 2 weeks with the bike and to visit".

2 weeks later, the following bike showed up at the In-laws :)

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Title and serial indicate a nice 78 SE (2FO-104xxx, built in late 77 IIRC). Since it hadn't been run or ridden in about 5 years, I bought some parts from Mikes XS and started going through the bike with my father-in-law. New progressive front fork springs, flushed and re-filled front forks with Spectre 20w fork oil, new fork seals/boots, re-did all the fuel lines, air box, new plugs, new rear shocks/springs (13.5" monzas courtesy of Mikes) new clutch cable and set the clutch correctly. flushed brake system, new EBC pads, etc. Only things left at this point is an oil change for storage and soaking the chain and re-lubing.

A couple issues still remain. The tach sorta works, its just VERY SLOW responding and doesn't go above like 2000. speedo is fine. Also, the seat doesn't sit right with the hinge pins in. the latch isn't long enough to hit the catch and its almost like one of the stops under the seat is too tall...i THINK it may be a re-covered standard seat.

It also started to backfire off of the right cylinder on deaccell, but while working on it, the rear muffler to header pipe joint is very loose, probably leaking. Im guessing this is the source of my backfire but not 100% sure.

electric starter works, but pops out of gear 3 out of 4 times. I think i can fix it by adjusting the bendix gear spring tension from what i found on the forum.

sure sounds nice running and drives quite well from the many trips up and down the driveway and around the house so far. I'll get some better pics this weekend as well

Video below :)

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Welcome to the site!

The popping on decel sounds like it's sucking air in the exhaust pipe somewhere. Check your connections and your head pipe gaskets. Electric starter is probably the all too common bendix gear getting shreaded by the flywheel but it could be the spring as well Mikes Sells a replacement kit including the gear and the spring. That seat is aftermarket. Probably designed for a standard. Hard to tell in your pics.

Sounds like it's gonna be a very nice riding bike with all the suspension upgrades. Any long term plans? Are you going to customize it or leave it stock?
 
Thanks!

I'm going to keep it stock-ish while i'm learning to ride. The upgrades were mostly driven by safety and age. Probably at most, end up doing a Pamco ignition and a few other tweaks but not sure past that. The bike may also be used for my wife to learn how to ride as well, so kinda want to keep it tame for the time being

I'll definitely get some better pics this weekend on the seat and such.

I know that the right side muffler, if you take the mount bolt off, will slide right off the header pipe. Is there any GOOD way to address this loose coupling issue?

Free is always best. Learned a saying on the fire department at home: "cheap is good, but free is better!"
 
Cool, be careful. You don't say where you live, but I would suggest a motorcycle safety course (MSF). In some states, it will get you your license with no further test, cheaper insurance, and it will make you a better rider.

Welcome. :)

John
 
I'm planning on taking a Motorcycle Ohio training course in the spring when they start up again (they were all full up for the year when i got my permit). Upon completion, the practical is waived for the endorsement.

Father in law and wifes uncle have both been riding for a LONG time and both HIGHLY SUGGESTED a rider course as well.
 
I was sort of in the same boat as you, but Mom, being 85, doesn't exert as much influence as she once did...

Literally my first time riding a motorcycle was about 3-4 years ago when I took the MSF course. I'd been a passenger before, but not the rider. If I hadn't taken the course I would have been totally lost; much more dangerous to myself than I am. One thing the MSF teaches, looking over your shoulder before you change lanes, has saved my neck several times. A couple basic things they didn't teach that they should have was using the clutch to help control width of a turn, and pulling out to the left and right from a stop. They covered low-speed riding by dragging the rear brake and slipping the clutch, but not as well as is necessary. I learned those things from Youtube videos and hours in the big parking lot nearby. I've logged about 15-20,000 miles at this point, nearly all of it on my '81 XS, and it's my normal mode of transportation.

Also, I have the book the MSF publishes, and David Hough's book "Proficient Motorcycling." .
 
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Those mufflers are not stock. No problem with that, It can cause leaky problems, as you know. A good clamp, not from the parts store, one for a motorcycle. Wiil help seal the muffler to the headpipe.
You might try some of the exhaust pipe sealers they sell in the parts store. Take the muffler off and put a good coat on the pipe and put the muffler back on. Let the sealer cure at least 24 hours.
 
Welcome to the XS650 world and our forum. Great bike and the price was certainly right. It's great your father in law is a rider and is able to help you wrench on it. Give that bike some TLC and you'll have a lot of fun on it. Be sure when you get it going to share it with your fellow mechanic. It's always fun to ride different bikes. It is a good bonding activity with a father in law and when you want to ride "with her dad" she's less likely to disapprove!

Unhook the tach cable and give it a good lubrication per the service manual. I have ,as a test ,put the bottom cable end into a variable speed drill to test it. A decent used one can be had on ebay for not too much or look in the for sale listings here on the site. I might even have one. I THINK the gauges for the specials have orange needles if I remember correctly. Have fun!

I think I have a digital copy of the basic rider course booklet if you want it..
 
Got a couple pictures of the seat i hope shows what im asking about. If you have the pins in, it won't latch as the latch is too short and one of the bump pad stands is too tall causing the seat to lean to the right. Makes me think it may be a standard seat...

IMAG0178.jpg

IMAG0179.jpg

IMAG0180.jpg

IMAG0177.jpg
 
It may fit a standard better, but it's not a stock seat. Thats an aftermarket king queen seat.
 
Well, it's been a while since I updated this thread. A lot has happened since the first posting. Did some more work on the bike and have a few issues/questions still.

I did sign up for and take an MSF approved riding course (run by the Motorcycle Ohio program). I did extremely well and was one of the top students for teh weekend course. Passed the eval and was able to walk into the BMV and hand over the pass cert, pay $23 and get a motorcycle endorsement! not too shabby at all :). Been riding as weather permits. Only about 250 miles total though :( dang rain...

As for the bike:

progress:
Did an oil change and replaced the right side cover filter. Have a sump filter but didn't get to check on it. I'll do that on the next oil change. Old filter was getting tired and had crap on it. no idea if the PO checked it at all. Used some Yamalube 20w50 on the oil change too. Also took the tach apart and cleaned the bearings up of old grease. Tach responds REAL well now! Also put new shoes on the bike, stock size Avon Roadrider tires w/ tubes. Cleaned up the blinker switch so it wasn't so stiff, and put di-electric grease in it to try and keep it from corroding and getting stiff again.



Issues:
Right side exhaust isn't popping now, but the left side is. Also, the left side is running richer than the right. Right seems dialed in pretty well, nice tan plug color. Left side is still black. Also it doesn't start too well and transition between choke/non choke. I suspect it has something to do with the left side being rich and all. I set the mix screw to the 2-1/4 turns out, and tried the dead cyl meathod but could not seem to get any variation in the RPMs with nearly a full sweep of the mix screw. Any ideas what may be causing the left side richness?

Left side exhaust is definitely leaking. PO had retrofitted aftermarket mufflers to the outer header pipes. Need to order a couple clamps from mikes (Iron pony does NOT have 1.5" clamps :( ) and use the exhaust adapter fix from the forum to seal up the exhaust.

Seat still needs to be remedied. I got it to fit somewhat with longer bolts and washers. It will at least latch and tilt, but the fit is still off. Working on trying to find an affordable Special lide hinge seat, kinda hard with tight funds these days.

Also, took the bike on the highway yesterday. was a little surprised at how many rpms were needed to maintain 65-70mph. Engine was turning about 4800-5000rpms. This normal for a seemingly stock bike? I'm definitely thinking about Mike's 5th gear and possibly a sproket teeth change (when i can afford new sprojects and a chain...). Any good options for getting a good highway cruise RPM? I weigh in about 220 ATM (loosing weight though) and i also had my wife on the bike too (180ish).



Future plans
Electrical system seems OK, but definitely want to upgrade the headlight, add LED tail and blinkers, and do a PMA charging system upgrade. Also probably going to repaint the tank and side covers, but still need to figure out what color. Misc other pieces need fixed/upgraded: handlebar dampers, shrink-tube the tach to seal it better after pulling it apart, torque teh head down due to i think an oil leak on the front side of the motor (probably get the brass washers from Mikes for that) and so on.

I'm still on the lookout for a few parts as well. I recently found out that I think my bike was supposed to have lower side covers. don't suppose anyone has those kicking around anywhere for cheap? :)

questions, comments, and advice all welcome!
 
Leaky vacuum petcock diaphrams often cause a rich cylinder. Remove the vacuum lines and block the vacuum ports, run the petcocks on prime. See if the carbs drip while sitting not running they shouldn't. Have you done carb rebuilds?
http://www.amckayltd.com/carbguide.pdf
 
no carb rebuilds and the PO replaced the vacuum petcocks with manual ones off of Mikes.

BTW, im not sure which way the lever is for reserve and regular lol I have been running with the lever pointing up, is that running on reserve? I was thinking of the lever like an arrow -> with the handle part being the stem...
 
Shadow24v welcome to the site! Yours is one of the best "I'm new to this" intros I've seen. I commend you on your desire to "know" these bikes. You've done your homework well.

The seat, while I seldom disagree with XSLeo, was designed for the flatter frame standard and marketed as a "touring" seat. The K/Q is a stepped seat design with a high back. It has a flatter pan than the special and as you've found the latch tang is shorter.
Keep watching the classified. You will find one sooner or later from a bike being customed. The correct seat schematic is found at Yamaha's site,is shown under the
XS650SE-114241 - 1978 listing. The other two listings show the later seat

High rpm at highway speeds. It is right on for what you would expect with the stock 17/34. The 32 tooth sprocket is an improvement and take off with two up won't be noticably different. The 30 tooth will lower it (rpm) more but I don't think you're going to like the take off 2 up. BUT you might so...

Side covers. The lowers are only on the 82-83 US models. Maybe the 84 Canadian??
Yours wasn't designed for them. If you need pics for the difference ask.


You've gotten the decel popping from exhaust leaks figured out. Finish sealing it up to eliminate that factor.

You've done harder things it is time to yank the carbs. Work on one at a time so you can see what was original if you hit a bump That said you could have some mods by a PO that will be diiferent than stock so record what you've got. Look at the schematics on Yamahas site.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/service/servicehome/home.aspx
Clean with carb cleaner and compressed air till you see free flow through the ports in the throttle body. You may not need to "rebuild" a good cleaning may fix it.
While you have them off sync them by cutting a narrow piece of paper 1/2 -3/4" wide and 2-3" long. Start on the left side. Lay the paper under the butterfly and adjust with the idle stop screw till you feel a light drag pulling it out. Now lay it under the right butterfly and adjust it with the sync screw in the middle till the drag feels the same.
I think this may fix your black left plug, if not it has gotten you to a very rideable position for them and the problem is something else.

Handle bar dampeners. Search grizld1's post on this. A very affordable solution.

LED's search the 650rider site for insight. Several good threads (RG's posts come to mind) there including my conversions of the round and rectangular lights.

Head seeps are cured(most times) by retorquing the rubber backed washers to 30-32 lbs.
Look long enough you will find some have used 34-35 lbs BUT the 30-32 probably is most.

Whew thats alot of hunt and peck 4 me.

Enjoy you bike! And again WELCOME to the site!
 
Thanks for the reply weekendrider. I really like to "know" the machines i work on. Same thing with my car; its a one of a kind motor swap, self built and programmed Megasquirt ECU and much more. the mechanical aspect is quite natural at this point, however, carbs are still a bit fuzzy due to working with mostly fuel injection and simple carbs only.

I was starting to think I may need to pull the carbs and refresh them. the PO had let the bike sit for about 5 years before I got it. It is very possible something is buggered up or varnished in the left side carb. I've rebuilt a couple simple carbs before (lawnmower, ditchwitch, moped) that were all varnished up and ran like crap before rebuild. I bet a that would help with the starting/choke issue too

I'll keep the 17/30 in mind as I do want to replace the chain soon. I can definitely tell the gearing is made for teh speeds of the 70s, not the current speeds. Also, how would a 17/30 sprocket setup and mikes 5th gear add up? Would it be too low in the RPMs for a 2-up? As for the chain, the current one is OK, but unknown mileage etc. I'd want to keep the old one as a last-ditch spare on a long trip or the like.

As for the LED's I'll look yours and RG's up. I was looking at universals on fleabay as possibles as well. Not sure if i want cheap stuff from China though...

I had looked up the head seep issue but haven't had time to pull the tank/motor-mount and re-tourqe. I wanted to spray down the front of the motor and see if it truly was leaking first. Just didn't think a hot engine + cold car wash power-washer was a good idea...

on the lower side covers' thanks. I read a thread and had equated all Specials as having them. saves me a few bucks

I'm on the lookout for a seat and have a few feelers out. all depends on funds really... (anyone got a free one? :) )
 
Well, started to have a couple more issues with the bike. I'm not sure if its timing or fuel related though. I occasionally get flat spots below about 3500 to 4000 (cans feel power loss) and also get a bad breakup periodically when I'm on throttle around 5000 and above. Neither seem to have any preceding indicators and repeatability is very hard. I did pull the tank off and replace the condensers. Points were replaced not too long before I got the bike. Also used the opportunity to "feel" torque the head nuts in an attempt to see if that cures the seep issue. gotta degrease the engine to see if/where its still leaking.

I dynamically tested the timing with a light. Idle and above 3000 rpm advances were right on. However, the timing curve seemed REAL steep. the motor didn't advance to the full timing mark gradually, but it what seemed like one jump while slowly opening the throttle. What are the chances that the timing advance mechanism is worn/shot?

Also, with stock airboxes but aftermarket mufflers, would an increase in pilot and main jets be needed when rebuilding the BS38s?

Electrical-wise, I'm looking into the rec-reg mods to help the aging charging system. Also starting to work on a couple ideas for self-made LED tail and indicators. I'm thinking of using a breadboard or a self-etched board cut to fit, and rubber sealed. Also, would a Hella H4 headlight bulb (60w/55w or so) be too much for the stock electrical system? the current bulb isn't that bright at night probably due to age or older tech.

Also, do the 78-79 specials have auto-canceling turn signals? If so, any links to how they work? A couple times after pulling into a turn lane I've seen my signals canceled without touching the indicator switch... or is it just something where it could have vibrated/slid the turn signal shuttle far enough to disconnect the signal?
 
Yes, you have a self canceling feature on your signals. You can cancel them manually by just pushing in on the button. I've found the self canceling feature to be hit and miss on mine - sometimes it works, sometimes not.

I think a good carb cleaning is in order. If the bowls had gum and varnish in them, now you're pushing that throughout the carbs. Sounds like it's starting to plug things up.

You probably need to service your advance unit and the advance rod. I doubt it's been done since the bike left the factory. That may smooth the advance out for you.

http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=EngineStock&action=display&thread=1372&page=1
 
Shadow24v;

I recommend you disconnect the "Self Cancelling unit" that's under the gas tank. It was designed to work with input from a distance measurement device inside the speedometer. In reality, it just does not work reliably. Its a real safety issue...........I found myself sitting at an intersection, waiting to turn and the flasher would just quit.

You said "and tried the dead cyl meathod but could not seem to get any variation in the RPMs with nearly a full sweep of the mix screw."

Concerning the "dead cylinder method" , I've mentiond this many times before but everyone still tries to adjust the mixture screw with the engine at 1200 rpm. You will be unable to get any tuning of the rpm with the engine idling at 1200 rpm. The 3 bypass holes over ride the mixture screw. You must lower the rpm down to about 300 or 400 rpm, which allows the butterflys to close off the 3 bypass holes. The mixture screw will then be able to control the air/fuel mixture.
 
Thanks for the input on the "dead cylinder" method. I may just make a manometer with some plastic tubing and ATF.

I think i may have narrowed down the carb issues. I think its a fuel or fuel supply issue. When i get on the throttle i think the missing and loss of power is tied to leaning out. Either from float issues or internal carb issues. If i coast or engine brake for a few seconds then hammer it, the bike will rev up with power. Nail it again a second or two after that and it starts running out of fuel around 4000-5000 rpms again. Guess its time to tear the carbs off and do a thorough clean and refresh.

Also, on the starter gear fix, is it worth the $50 for mikes kit or just tighten up the wishbone spring and re-stretch the return spring? Also is the LH side gasket reusable if carefully removed?

Also, does octane have any effect on this motor? I've been running 87 octane through it since i got it. Since the compression is low, i didn't think high octane was needed...
 
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