Race Tech Gold valve VS Mikes XS product??

XS650D

XS650 Junkie
Messages
925
Reaction score
398
Points
63
Location
Ont,Canada
Are these products basically the same product.Mikes are $59/pair and the Race Tech
product is a whopping $169 i believe. I have my rear end rideing great now want the front
to mirror that.I have considered the Minton Mod but the front end still has to come apart anyway with either .
 
Are these products basically the same product.Mikes are $59/pair and the Race Tech
product is a whopping $169 i believe. I have my rear end rideing great now want the front
to mirror that.I have considered the Minton Mod but the front end still has to come apart anyway with either .

This is a really great question. I paid the price of admission from Race-Tech for my XS1100. To make a long story short, they left me hanging and my results were worse than awful. I was a pissed off hombre until I met Matt Wiley at the Barber Vintage Fest and he straightened me out. I shouldn't have had to go through that.

After the fact, I discovered that Traxxion Dynamics in Woodstock, GA sells Race-Tech emulators for less money than Race-Tech sells them for. They provided my custom wound springs and my experience with them made me wish I had gone to them for the whole enchilada.

Bottom line is, you expect to get what you pay for. With Mike's XS, my expectations are very low. My expectations were very high for what I paid Race-Tech and they disappointed, until I crossed paths with Matt Wiley.

Now that it's sorted, the front end of my XS1100 is transformed. It does not resemble the bike that it was. I am very well pleased with the new found performance. Mind you, the springs were custom order and perfect for my needs. That's due to Traxxion Dynamics. The Race-Tech Gold Valve Emulator is a superior product and works extremely well, once you know the secret to tuning it.

One more thing. The XS1100 forks are too flimsy, just like the XS650. Emulators and heavy springs really load them up. A fork brace now becomes necessary. I got mine from Tkat.
 
Before you do anything, get an idea of what suspension tuning is about. Cartridge emulator valves enable damping to vary with bump profile and severity and enable a smoother ride with stiffer springs. Using dual rate/progressively wound springs with the valves will cause the valves to "read" bumps incorrectly; straight rate springs with correct rate for bike and rider weight are required. For a good starting place for suspension tuning, go to totalcontroltraining.net/Suspension101ebook.pdf. You'll need to type it into your browser; the link format on this site screws up the URL.

The valves from Mike's are indeed Chinese knockoffs. I won't beat the drum on the ethics of aiding and abetting the ripoff of the American inventor, Paul Thede. But there's one questionable item in the Chinese package. The operation of the valve is controlled by a small spring, and the rate is critical. The Chinese have a well established reputation for operating on the belief that something that looks good enough is good enough. I leave it to you to decide if that's good enough for you. Another thing you get from Race Tech is quality tech support. Again, I leave it to you to decide what that's worth.

And yep, as Marty says, Traxxion Dynamics is a fine operation--first class work and first class ethics. Yes, they sell Race Tech valves for less that Race Tech does. This doesn't mean that Paul Thede is ripping people off on direct sales; he sets his direct sales prices at a point that does not undersell his dealers.
 
Last edited:
I use a set of the mike knock offs on the 79 resto mod. It has stock springs, 77 caps, did the damper rod drilling, used a bit more oil per the threads on this. I have never removed and or messed with valve spring rates. I also have a stone stock 79 roadster with overhauled forks with slightly more oil. I think the modded bike offers a major improvement over the stock set up. firmer ride, much less flaccid, and "pogo-e". The resto mod also has a lighter MikesXS rotor and this year sports a mikesXS 2.15x19 rim and SS spokes with a "stock width" Michelin tire. Is it an equal of modern sport forks? NO! but it's quite a bit better. Perhaps an oddity of the mikes units or perhaps characteristic of the valves I can hear the valves unseat, especially when I first start riding, not annoying just perceptible.

I am no suspension tuning expert, no trick dialing in has been done. The bike also has progressive rear shocks and springs. and a 2.5 18 rear rim SS spokes again with stock width michelin tire. I have the rear preload collars set a couple clicks stiff for my 175 pounds because of shock/chain guard interference. "some day I'll have to remove and grind away some chain guard. I will have to redo the rear rim due to poor spoke hole alignment.
I like to think the upgrades are in line with my theme of a "better handling" old gal, it's not a modern sport bike. I push my corners "a bit" I'm not a knee dragger.
 
Gary, there are forks on modern sport bikes, and there are modern forks, and they're often not the same thing at all. Just as one example, stock forks on the Suzuki SV650/Gladius/SV1000 are old style damper rod type with the usual vice of being overdamped and undersprung. I can tell you from experience that the old XS650 35 mm. fork, valved, braced, and properly tuned, will outperform that new Suzuki stock front end. As in all performance mods, there's small benefit without attention to the details. Stock forks are too soft to work well with your valves. At your rider weight you'd need straight rate springs with a rate between .85 and .90 kg.mm, depending on how much weight you've pulled off your bike, to realize much benefit. You'd need good shocks as well.
 
Last edited:
I found that the mikes emulator installed per instructions with heavier fork oil is a very noticeable improvement for small money. I need to check sag some day but don't top or bottom the forks, the front stays planted, it's not way off. I run the stock fender, no extra fork brace (yet). I rode Dick's bike a little bit and his suspension felt very good to me. He wouldn't ride mine.
There is no one answer when chasing performance.
 
Grgiz,with my bike being a stock 77 with stock strait rate fork springs (I have 1" preload pvc spacers and 10 weight oil 6" from top.) I weight 150 lbs.I have the progressive gas shocks on rear 13" with 60/90 springs and they are great in the middle setting.Could I use thease front stock fork springs with the emulators and do I need to drill out the fork rods regardless.I did find with some testing last season that any more than 1" spacers made the forks to stiff a ride for small stuff and anything heavier than 10 weight (tried 15 and 20 weight) again stiffened the ride over small bumps and cracks to much.Would u suggest going more oil than 6",maybe 5.5" or will that just make the ride stiffer.The rides definitely better than it was but with the new shocks on the rear its made the front end ride show its less than ideal characteristics! No ones mentioned the Minton Mod strangely.
 
I run the Minton Mods and like them. I guess you could consider them an in-between step between stock and the emulators. If they're not good enough for you, you can always go ahead and install the emulators.

When you install emulators, you drill out and enlarge the oil flow holes in your damper rods to the point that they no longer function and control (restrict) oil flow. The emulator does this now. With the Minton Mods, you just slightly enlarge the holes. The rods still control the damping but now flow more oil. One of the main problems with the stock forks is their lack of response to the little stuff. They seem to work OK on big bumps but not so well on the little ones. It's not the springs really, it's too much damping. The Minton Mods fix this.

I'm sure $200+ for custom springs and emulators will improve your forks, but the Minton Mods are something you can try for free. If it's not good enough, then you can drop the big bucks.

One more thing, your stock springs are progressive, at least according to the shop manuals. They won't cut it with the emulators.
 
D, stock springs aren't straight rate, they're dual rate, and IIRC the rate is around .65 kg/mm in the heavy windings and around .45 kg/mm in the light windings. At your rider weight you'll need .8 kg/mm true straight rate springs if you've lightened your bike, probably .85 if it's at stock weight. I'm going to write this again: emulators achieve variable damping in response to different irregularities, and that response depends on tighter springs. Springs that feel too stiff without variable damping won't feel that way with emulators in place; variable damping smooths out the ride. Bottom line: emulators do well what dual rate springs do badly.

Minton's fork mods were the best you could do with damper rod forks before Paul Thede invented his emulator valves. If you want optimum performance in the front end, get the Race Tech valves, follow the directions, and read the Total Control Training ebook to learn how to set your sag. The suspension is a system and it all has to work together.

Gary, the real proof of the pudding is to find a tight, bumpy corner and see what happens when you turn up the wick out of the apex. If your scoot holds the line, you know that your suspension is compliant; it's keeping the rubber hooked up to the road. If the bike walks to the outside, you're losing adhesion and still have work to do. You have to get a little frisky with the bike to do that, and yours was just too pretty for me to risk dropping it!
 
I pulled my springs many times and they sure look strait rate and I have had progressive springs on other bikes before,Looks like the previous owner may have installed another spring if stock is suppost to be progressive.I am going to try the Minton mod first as above ,may be enough for me.Question do the fork tubes have to be removed or do u just remove the front wheel and fender,pop out the springs from top then pull the bolts or screws from the bottom and the rods come out.Is that basically it,then drill out the holes slightly larger or do I drill new holes?
 
It sounds like your springs may have been changed. The stock ones are progressive and it's easy to see the tighter wound coils at one end .....

RGnj8YN.jpg


The stock set-up (for '77) also had about a 40mm long tube preload spacer on top of the spring, and plain, non-adjustable fork caps .....

f7hXHI0.jpg


The '77 springs are also a little shorter (@ about 472mm free length) than all the later springs. The later ones were 482mm long. The '77 forks are unique and a little different internally than all the later 35mm forks. Besides the different spring length, the damper rods differed slightly. The amount and location of the oil holes is the same but the tops differ. Also, the '77 oil holes are beveled .....

y8A9CaH.jpg


Here's a link to the Minton Mods article. Be aware that there are some errors in the fork mod part (# of holes and hole sizes) .....

http://www.650central.com/tech/mintonmods.htm

Here's a link to a thread that corrects those errors .....

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25588
 
Last edited:
You can leave the tubes in the trees, in fact it may make dis-assembly easier. What you will need to do is rig up a way to keep the damper rod from spinning as you remove and install the bottom bolt. That bolt was installed with thread sealer or some type of thread locking compound so it turns out hard the whole way. That usually results in the damper rod spinning once the bolt is loosened a little. You won't be able to get it out. Later damper rods had like a 12 pt. socket on top. A 17mm hex head, like on a bolt, is usually inserted and held with a socket to keep the rod from turning .....

mr5lvoj.jpg


Your '77 damper rod tops are not like that. They have a round top with two flats on it. Some fab up a special tool by notching an old socket to fit, but that's pretty difficult if the fork is still assembled .....

fqDSdgz.jpg


There is another, simpler method. There is a roll pin driven through the side of the damper rod top. Get a length of 1/4" rod and hammer the end flat, then jam it down into the rod top between the pin and the outer wall .....

sLeqnRw.jpg


ADaatir.jpg
 
Last edited:
BUT you have to loosen the top triple fork tube pinch bolts before attempting to loosen and remove the fork caps. (74 on) They squeeze the fork tube enough to lock up the cap thread. That's why you see so many buggered up fork caps, dummy didn't know to release the pinch bolts.

I made the tool 5t talks about avoiding.

This thread http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21110

Post #10 for pics and dimensions.
 
5 twins,Thats great info Thx. To recap on the procedure if i have it rite,I need to remove fork oil then brake calipers,remove front wheel and fender ,fork caps and springs (don,t have the 40 ml spacer just a 1"pvc spacer on top off a washer)jam a 1/4" rod with a flat end down inside the fork tube and remove a screw or bolt at the bottom off the forks on each side.I take it the damper rod comes out the top off the forks.Have i got it rite?
 
forks on the Suzuki SV650/Gladius are old style damper rod type with the usual vice of being overdamped and undersprung.

I have 2 sets of SV65O forks, 2 pairs of off brand cart emulators for them AND a genuine set of Race tech cart emulators. No aftermarket springs yet. I'd put some money on those 41mm SV tubes being less flexy than the XS650 front end. And the Tokico calipers should be a nice improvement over the XS anchors. Fork length is a bit of an issue, the SV motor sits low.
Rumor has it the SV1000 uses a non rebuildable cartridge, of dubious quality..

Some good reading on brakes, kinda explains why the the XS650 disks, are what they are.
 
Yep, Gary, the Yam forks have to be braced for good results, and you'll find no need to do that with SV650 forks. The Tokico caliper is an improvement over the OE Yam unit, but it's still a single action brake; of course if you figure out a way to use the whole front end, sliders and all, you won't have any of grief with fabrication to mount it. I know the V Strom 1000 uses a cartridge fork, now you have me wondering about the SV liter bike.
 
We are always amazed at people who "Know how orientals "think " when they have never been there or done business with them.
Mike started in Japan when everyone joked about stuff from the JA Pan company ( and a lot was crude ). He then moved to Taiwan and seen the improvements in the factories over the years including the move to them using German and Japanese CNC machinery. Mainland china is now on the same learning curve and will soon eat our lunch. Paying a good price for a good product is fine but I haven't seen many rich XS riders. Harley has been having " American" parts made in Taiwan AND Japan for over 45 years as have many European Brands. China,s next planed move is to upgrade quality to a world leading level. Be thankful you have Grizl.d to set you all straight on whats correct on every technical topic. Joe
 
Back
Top