Star-shaped gear selector out of alignment

[ANLAF]

I have the right side cover off and replaced the shifter-shaft assembly. I have noticed the star-shaped gear selector is out of alignment - in the Haynes manual the diagram shows one of the arms of the five-pointed star pointing to about three minute to the hour if it were on the face of a clock. My donor engine is just that, but on the engine I am working on the star points directly upwards to 12 o'clock.

You will see my video at

The shifter-shaft I just replaced had its splines smoothed out with the pressure of my boot trying to find neutral, then losing 1st, 2nd then 3rd. Now I've got in there the clutch plates are less than 2mm, so that can't have helped the shift gear (new ones on the way). The oil has no metal chunks but has tiny black shards of hard material.

Questions
1. is the star aligned in an acceptable range of adjustment?
2. if not, what is wrong, and how to I put it right?

By the way my bike is registered as an 81, but I think it is earlier than that - engine number 3L1-002207X - could this be an XS-SF (Eur) 78-79? and my bobber project - engine number FO-254157 - could this be an XS-2E or XS-2F, 77-78 or 78-79. My donor engine (which look in almost new condition beneath the dirt - engine number 447-300690.

Thank for any help you might give.

Anlaf

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hello ANLAF, welcome to the forum.
Your 'starwheel' issue may not be an issue, but it helps to understand it.
To the left of the starwheel is a wheel 'indexer detent' that holds the shift drum in position. When the trans is in neutral, there is another neutral 'detent plunger' atop the case, over the shift drum, that holds the shift drum's starwheel at a different angle. From your youtube flik, it looks like one engine may be in gear, while the other may be in neutral. It would be best to dismantle the starwheel and the large-wheel indexer anyway and check that the indexer pivot arm hole and wheel aren't wallowed-out. Also, try using the forum search tools, both the left-side 'google' search and the right-side 'forum' search. To start, use the search term 'starwheel', and read those threads. Also, pursue the 'similar threads' and 'tags' items at the bottom of this thread...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

More fun reading :

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28137
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8659
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1411

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41&highlight=buchauszug

 

[ANLAF]

Thank you my friend, TwoMany.
Slowly but surely I am beginning to understand the mechanism, and I have read the threads you suggested, which all adds to my knowledge. I have attached a photo from the Pahl manual and put a red arrow from the neutral detente bullet-shaped plunger to where I imagine it sits in the recess on the shift drum - am I correct?
The screw cap and spring of the neutral detente pop out no problem, but the plunger doesn't want to come out - what is the way to remove it? By the way, working through the sequence of gears yesterday I worked out that the engine is in neutral when the arm of the star with the engraved circle is pointing directly downwards to six o'clock, so both my engines were in gear when I made the video clips (1st gear is 20 past if the star-wheel is a clock, 2nd is 20 to, 3rd is 10 to, 4th is 12 o'clock, and 5th is 10 past).
You say it would be best to dismantle the star-wheel and the large wheel-indexer - can I do that with the just the right side casing off? Wearing of the indexer pivot arm hole makes sense - as if the neutral detente is not sitting correctly.

Anlaf

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

There will be 5 pins in the starwheel, one is short, so cannot shift below 1st or past 5th. Note their locations. The large-wheel indexer (also called 'stopper') is not difficult to remove, you're just looking for sloppy fit and indentions on wheel edge. To confirm shifter claw adjustment, measure claw/pin spacings for all gear positions, adjust to get best averages if necessary.

 

[ANLAF]

Thanks again, TwoMany. I will be removing the star-wheel later today and get through to the indexer to check for the sloppy fit and indentations as you suggest.

Anlaf

 

[YL82]

I'm in the midst of my first top end rebuild and I've learned a great deal but have a long road ahead. I've been reading this thread and the referenced ones to learn about the shift shaft and related parts. Still doing my homework and reading up in my manuals.

What I'm wondering about at this point is since I've got the left and right sides opened up, should I proceed with removing the shift shaft and other parts. Not sure what I'm looking for aside from obvious wear. I do have to add that I recall shifting problems shortly before I embarked upon the top end engine rebuild. I had assumed that they were strictly clutch-related (which I'm also rebuilding).

I may have alignment issues, but I'm not sure whether my images necessarily indicate that.

As I've said, I'm on here to read and learn....

At minimum, I plan on replacing the two visible springs since they're inexpensive.

 

[ANLAF]

I am at the same stage as you, YamaLovin, and I have decided to test the adjustments I have made so far (looks like the shifter-shaft claw now turns the star-wheel to find all the gears), so I will put my new clutch plates in and see how that goes. If there are still problems finding gears (I had lost neutral, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd) then I will remove the star-wheel and the indexer. From what I have read so far I believe removing the star-wheel indexer will mean splitting the cases, which seems quite a bit of trouble to go to just to check for wear - and I am like you, apart from wear I wouldn't know what to look for.

Your trouble shifting - your photograph shows your bike in neutral, so what is the trouble exactly? I have replaced the shifter-shaft assembly on my engine, adjusted the claw action, checked the neutral detente spring for tension. It would have been good to be able to find out why my star-wheel points exactly to 12 o'clock when all others I have seen (including the manual and my donor engine) point to three minutes to the hour. It makes me think the neutral detente is not working properly or is damaged or out of alignment - but I can't make the neutral detente bullet-shaped plunger come out. Well, if everything works at the moment I might be able to get away with a little wear. If the plunger is stuck or worn I will soon find out.

Anlaf

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Well, Anlaf, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and mention that the length of your indexer arm, and that of the donor engine, looked different on your first video, don't know why. Might double check this. I hope it's just from the video angle.

You can disassemble that star-indexer without splitting the cases.

I'm an advocate of polished contact surfaces, anything that rubs/rotates. If you have a polishing system, you could polish the shifter shaft, mostly where it rides in the case bores and that outboard seal. I personally experience smoother action when contact surfaces are polished, and seals last longer.

A trick to remove that neutral plunger would be to whittle-down a stick, jam it in there, and withdraw the plunger...

 

[YL82]

Your trouble shifting - your photograph shows your bike in neutral, so what is the trouble exactly? Anlaf

Well, I now know my bike is in Neutral. That's more than I knew earlier. Perhaps I'm OK with alignment.

What specifically indicates that I'm in Neutral (sorry for the elementary question)? Is it the position of the dimpled "spoke" on the side plate (star) being lined up with the off-colored dowel? Perhaps this is the "neutral detente bullet-shaped plunger" that you referred to...?

Is there a diagram available that shows gear positions on the star?

Thinking back, my shifting issues revolved around not being able to find Neutral with engine running and also shifting between 1st gear and Neutral (perhaps same issue).

At this point, I lack the testicular fortitude to open up the cases just for a look see since I'm up to my neck with top-side matters.

At this point, I believe I will follow the short list of things to check in my Service Manual (pages 61 &74) where one is to inspect the springs, rivets and check tightness of the adjusting screw lock nut. I believe I will just have to remove the shift shaft for these checks.

Can I reinstall my shift/change lever and change gears to see what's going on on Right Side? (Note: my clutch is removed).

Depending upon your progress with removal of your star indexer (esp. since TooManyXS1Bs indicated that one does not have to split the cases), I may follow your lead. Feel free to post pics/video of this....

Hope you don't mind me tagging along on the journey...

 

[ANLAF]

First, YamaLovin, there is no diagram to show gear positions in relation to the star-wheel that I have yet seen, but here it is: looking at the star find the arm with the engraved circle (all it the 'marker'). Looking at your star I see the arm with the mark points directly down to 6 o'clock - that is neutral. The big shaft that held the clutch should turn by hand freely. Working back, 1st is the marker at 20 past the hour. The star will trun counter-clockwise to go down the gears 5th down to 1st, and clockwise to go up the gears, 1st to 5th (it is difficult to turn the star by hand into neutral). Second is around 20 to, 3rd around 10 to, and 5th around 10 past.

Get the bike on a stand where the back wheel is raised - it is so much easier to encourage gear-shifting with the aid of the rear wheel being turned.

The cap-bolt on the top of the casing just above (and to the left as you look) of the star, is the neutral detente. A spring puts pressure on a bullet-shaped plunger to sit in a recess (a concave bowl shape) on the star-wheel indexer, which is slid into the engine and through the selector forks. I am looking for wear or mal-adjustment which might indicate why I struggled to find neutral warm or cold. My star is not pointing (when any arm is up) to the correct alignment of 3 minutes to the hour, so that might be it.

As for your set-up, put the bike into 2nd by turning the stat-wheel clockwise. it might move but not go all the way into position, so turn the clutch shaft counterclockwise and turn your rear wheel (as if it were moving forward). From there you should be able to get up to 3rd, 4th and 5th. Adjust the claw on each gear until there is equidistance between the peaks of the claw moving the star. I found setting the mechanism in 5th is best, but that might just be my bike, and the star-wheel is three degrees out of position - and there is no problem tagging on the progress. I have a donor engine and I am going to experiment of indexer removal first (and check to see if there any differences with that and my bike). It is a journey, enjoy every step of the way - I am.

TwoMany, I am going to slide out the indexer now you have said there is no need to split the cases. I am also going to do some extra cleaning and polishing of moving parts in there as you say might help - I am looking forward to doing a bit of whittling to get at that neutral detente plunger.

Anlaf

 

[YL82]

Anlaf, Thanks kindly for all of the information.

I should have indicated earlier that my engine is out of the bike and mounted on a home-made engine stand. Was wondering whether I could do any gear shifting in its current state.

Good luck and keep us updated! I'll try to refrain from asking you so many questions so you can get some work done!

 

[ANLAF]

TwoMany, I have just given up for the day - I have released the star-wheel indexer and it comes out as far as the NEUTRAL DETENTE PLUNGER allows. I tried everything I could think of to get it out of both my bike and the donor. I even turned the donor engine upside down, but it didn't want to move from its hole in the casing to the left of the star-wheel. There is no room down the side of the bullet-shaped plunger to get anything, as far as my eyes could see. It seems to me that short of drilling nothing will do it - HELP!

Anlaf

 

[ANLAF]

YamLovin, even with your engine out of the bike there is some testing you can do. Replace the left cover and refit the gear lever on the shifter-shaft - tighten properly to avoid damaging the splines on the shifter-shaft. With the shifter claw in place you should be able to get up from 2nd to 5th and back down by turning the clutch shaft.

You will have seen (above) that I can't get the neutral detente plunger out, and I think TwoMany is right to say inspect in there, there is likely to be some small amount of wear that is the root cause of my trouble finding neutral.

Anlaf

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hey, ANLAF, the star-indexer is simply the assembly of the starwheel and the pins. What that fits on, is the shiftdrum, which moves the shiftforks. To remove the shiftdrum requires splitting the cases. If your primary issue was the stripped shiftshaft splines, and your secondary issue is finding neutral, you don't need to do anymore disassembly. You've got the new shiftshaft, and you're checking the large-wheel stopper to ensure it holds the starwheel indexer in proper position. As far as difficult neutral is concerned, that is a common syndrome of the XS bikes, best solved by proper clutch condition and adjustment. Many threads here on 'difficulty finding neutral' and 'clutch adjustment'. Some forum searching will give you all the answers there.

 

[ANLAF]

Thanks, TwoMany. It's a relief to know I can now get it all back together. Yes, I have read many of the threads on the neutral issue and the correct clutch adjustment approach. I have new friction plates to replace the old ones which measure only 2mm, when the new ones are 3mm. I have new clutch springs, and the worm gear, clutch rods and cable have all been thoroughly cleaned and adjusted. Your post has actually cheered me up, and now I can press on and get the clutch iinstalled.

Anlaf

 

[YL82]

I have new clutch springs, and the worm gear, clutch rods and cable have all been thoroughly cleaned and adjusted.
Anlaf

One thing that I plan to install to (hopefully) improve shifting is a long one-piece clutch pushrod which replaces the inner & outer pushrods and one of the bearings or balls. So you end up with the one long pushrod, one ball and then the Push Crown.

Can't say whether this move would help you're situation, but thought I'd throw out this idea. Mikesxs and Heiden Tuning sell theses long rods (39-6511).

 

[YL82]

With the shifter claw in place you should be able to get up from 2nd to 5th and back down by turning the clutch shaft. Anlaf

Anlaf, I want to make sure I'm following you correctly. Do I shift up to 5th with the shift lever and then shift back down by rotating the clutch shaft? Thanks.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

ANLAF, old clutch plates were only 2mm? THAT is worn very thin! Be sure to closely follow the proper washer/bearing/spacer stacking sequences in the clutch. Several forum threads cover that.

 

[ANLAF]

YamaLovin, use the gear lever up and down - turning the clutch shaft is to encourage the star-wheel to click-in to place if it stops between gears. Remember it is a mechanism that operates when the engine is running, and shifting through all the gears with the engine stopped can need a little encouragement.

Anlaf