That Wrrrr Noise....

[Bob Kelly III]

the last pic was a close up of the crank main bearing.... I sprayed carb cleaner in the bearing and got Most the oil out and got down close with my glasses on and did not see any pits at all... the bearing looks good to me !
..... the Clutch
the clutch to me is a bit wobbly not very much but a bit... the bushing must be worn although it funtions perfectly , I do not have any clutch problems at all.... there is NO scoring on the cases nothing has rubbed.....
again.... nothing to show that would account for the Wrrrrr or Whine sound.... unless its the excessive lash from the primary gear to the clutch basket sprocket.....
the shaft the clutch basket rides on turns smoothly
....... Opinions please ! so far Nothing to account for the noise...... unless it's the Lash on the primary gear.
.....
Bob.......

 

[weekendrider]

Bob you sure about the pin thing?

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Hi WER ! Well purty sure... the pin came out in 2 pieces.... I assume it should be One long one.... I did notice that it could be pushed In and the gear could spin over the top of it...so that isn't right..... I didn't see 2 holes for 2 pins but then I had to fish them out of the oil to retrieve the pins as I was getting the needle nose plyers to pull them out when my back was turned they simply fell out ! LOL
in post #100 the first pic shows the 2 pins by the nut. i think it should be 1 pin not 2.
.....
Here's a pic of the Oil Sump
that last bolt under the side stand bracket was a bitch to get out no socket I had would fit it and the end wrench only would turn it a tiny amount..... so that is how it came out about 15deg. at a time the entire way.... LOL

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Keep in mind that that oil sump has never been off that I know of sense it was new.... the magnets on both sides have been doing their job
and collecting fine metal particles the entire time... and there isn't that much on it.... so that's a good thing!
.....
the Clutch to my surprise looks to have been assembled correctly after going through the assembly pics on another thread that 2M posted ages ago.... everything EXCEPT the lock tab on the nut... the lock tab was directly on the clutch housing and the small washer on top of it
with the lock tab bent over the washer to hold the nut..... it was tight and wasn't moving at all.
....
the only other thing I can see to do to find the noise is to pull the top end off and see if the guides are wore off......
and I don't think I'll do that right now.....
for all intents and purposes there is nothing that I can see that would cause the Sound other than the excessive Lash of the primary gear and clutch basket..... to replace them is bound to be more money than I have but I will price them just the same ! LOL
.....
to get the nut loose on the clutch basket I put it in 2nd gear and put a wooden hammer handle on top the swing arm through the spokes....
and took my big 3/4" ratchet and socket ( loose fitting american size 1-1/16" I think it was....all I had) and got the nut loose....
HOWEVER it did bend one spoke which I will bend back when I'm done.... it didn't bend it bad.....but I can see that it's bent a bit.
.....
the engine primary nit wasn't too bad , I had the proper size in metric for it and just put a cheater bar on it and smacked it with a hammer and it came off easy...... even though it tried to turn the crank backwards.....
.....
the clutch spring holder screws took the impact driver and phillips tip ( as I don't have a JIS tip) they will go back on the same way !
not super tight just one good smack with the hammer.
.....
I am Disappointed..... I was hoping to find a definite cause of the noise but alas that's not the case, it's ambiguous.... probably the clutch primary gears being fairly loose ....or possibly the cam chain.
.....
Hay 2M : isn't the OIL level too low for the primary gears to be splash fed with Oil ????? if so how are they Supposed to be oiled ?
seams like one of the gears should dip into the oil and I don't see that happening in the design !
.....
Bob........

 

[Bob Kelly III]

I read once on here where one of you guys , I think gggGary, found the entire length of rubber off the chain guide ....
and that has been going through my mind....
but before I took this engine apart the first time it had this loud noise and after inspecting and finding Nothing wrong I reassembled it and it is still there, so I suspect that the guides are good still.... probably missing a few chunks as per what was in the filter....
but I expect the chain guides are good to go as they were last inspection.
....which leaves me with only one possible cause the Primary drive Lash !
Hummmmm
.....
Bob........

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Question ! ...My manual doesn't show the tach drive gear just the primary drive gear....
My question is ....does the tach drive gear also double as the oil pimp drive ? I think it does
and that broken PIN could have been the results of no oil pressure at all EH ? as the shaft just turns inside the gear
without turning the tac or oil pump ! EEEEK !!!!!!
......
gott'a go look !
...Edit: the tach gear does indeed drive the oil pump so if that small gear is spinning on the crank you would have no tach and no oil pressure....
however, close inspection tells me that gear was NOT spinning on the shaft.
even though the pin was broken .... VERY ODD !
Bob....

 

[Michaelo]

Where did these come from Bob? Have you checked the cam bearings?

 

[Bob Kelly III]

No Mick I haven't checked the cam bearings on this venture so far, they were in good shape 50~75 miles ago though !
that isn't Metal you see there it's black rubber non metallic and I assume it's from the cam chain guides....
there's little pieces all through the engine but oddly enough none in the oil sump they must float on the oil !
the oil filter has a bunch of that stuff in it....
.....
I ran into a snag starting to put it back together and the clutch push rod won't go far enough back in
so I tried to untighten the clutch adjusting nut and of course it pulls itself put or reach of the socket so I have to pull that side plate off to hold the worm so I can back off the clutch adjustment screw..... figures don't it ? LOL
the gear that drives the oil pump and tach i've already put back on, it couldn't have been slipping because the big lock washer under the nut hadn't scared the gear at all.... so that is a relief. Although it doesn't explain the tach's periodic working , though i expect it is just the cable
..... I made a new pin from a hard metal screw for that gear it sticks all the way through the hole into the slot in the gear I don't really think it is intended to Hold the gear I think the nut and lockwasher do that.... it's kind'a there as a backup ! LOL

so i guess I'll put it back together tomorrow . unless someone can suggest an alternative I can afford ! LOL !!!!! I should replace the primary drive sprocket or at the very least the bushing in the clutch basket..... or get an entirely new clutch center with the bushing in it, and it's sleeve.
.... but it's not likely to fail in the next 10,000 miles and then I would be surprised....
I think I've done all I can do in finding the noise from the sideplate.... and I've already did the top end inspection a while back
which proved nothing.... the cam bearings looked good then .....
the only thing that is nagging me is those bits of rubber from the cam chain guide.... that's allot of rubber for just 75 miles !
they may well be coming apart ! and that is my Noise .... but the only way to know for sure is pull the engine and inspect the guides
again....that sounds like a winter project to me not a summer one ! LOL
....
Bob.........

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

The fit of clutch basket to its sleeve should be close, no more than 0.002", which would not allow any slop/rocking. A little extra clearance there translates to excessive gear lash. There IS a bronze bushing in the hub, known to wear, but not as an available/replaceable part. Do a forum search on "basket spin test".

Look for any subtle signs of scraping on the backside of the hub, and corresponding shifter parts.

The oil pump drive gear uses a long 1-piece shear pin.

Members have reported that rubber shards are also likely from the starter gear.

You can do the crank runout test without the clutch on there...

 

[Bob Kelly III]

I just went out and did the crank run out spin test.... at your request..... the crank does indeed have a tiny amount of wobble to it
not much about 1/32" or so but it does indeed wobble a small amount
no way near like the video gggGary made of his crank !
....
I could find nothing on the basket spin test I spun it by hand before the primary gear was put back on and it seamed to spin true and no wobble to it although I can flex the whole clutch by hand a small amount up and down or side to side and I've determined that the slop is from the bushing in the clutch hub.....not the shaft the shaft has no wiggle at all in any direction....
.....there is no scrapings anywhere on anything it's clean ! no metal fragments
just rubber that's been chewed up from somewhere.

Bob........

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I just went out and did the crank run out spin test.... at your request..... the crank does indeed have a tiny amount of wobble to it
not much about 1/32" or so but it does indeed wobble a small amount
no way near like the video gggGary made of his crank !

1/32" is tiny, for someone cutting framing lumber.

1/32" (0.031") is ENORMOUS, when considering crank trueness, which should not exceed 0.002".

If you do indeed have that much runout, it'll shove the primary gear into the clutch basket gear, and the basket's bushing will have to eat the difference.

Worse, that much runout means that the crank is twisted...

You wouldn't be able to see the allowable runout > 0.002".
Runouts greater than that are also not perceivable will still cause engine problems.
If you can see runout, it's pretty bad.
May want a second set of eyes to confirm visible runout...

 

[YamadudeXS650C]

I agree with 2M that your rubber chunks could be coming from the starter gear. A chewed up one looks like this:

and a new one (center):

 

[gggGary]

Bob;
Side stand forces bend, twist the LH lower frame section slightly, I often take a maul and block of hardwood and "gently tap" that frame section back out a bit. Then the sump plate comes off easily.
You did notice the sump filter is torn? It's an easy DIY fix. When it's intact it keeps the pump from having to eat chunks of rubber etc.
You should open and inspect the oil pump! Watch for the washer found on the bottom of the tach drive be sure it goes back where it belongs. "some" of the side cover/filter bolts have brass washers. they should go back where found.
Like 2 many sez observable wobble on the crank end isn't right.

 

[gggGary]

Hopefully you drained the oil into a clean pan. Tilt the pan so you can see the dregs through just a thin layer of oil you are looking to see if the oil looks a bit like metallic paint with shiny swirls. Sorry to hear what sounds like major engine issues.

 

[xjwmx]

Member here daddygcycles had a couple of cranks for sale at a very reasonable price. Note there are holes in the bearings that correspond to pins in the upper case half were the bearings sit. After you think it's sitting there right, lift up on the crank just very slightly and you can turn the bearing just a hair and feel the pin stopping it and you know it's sitting right. Check each pin and hole that way.

 

[gggGary]

Member here daddygcycles had a couple of cranks for sale at a very reasonable price. Note there are holes in the bearings that correspond to pins in the upper case half were the bearings sit. After you think it's sitting there right, lift up on the crank just very slightly and you can turn the bearing just a hair and feel the pin stopping it and you know it's sitting right. Check each pin and hole that way.

Sounds like the voice of experience..........

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Probably a better, definitive test:

Refit the crank primary gear and clutch basket.
Left hand operating a wrench on the rotor nut.
Lean over, or lay on the bike, right hand grasping the basket.
Wiggle the basket, feeling the primary gear lash.
Slowly rotate the engine while feeling the backlash.
See if the backlash increases, decreases, increases, ...etc.
Which would indicate runout.

If the crank's right flywheel twisted on its crankpin, expect the tight/loose spots to occur at TDC and BDC...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hay 2M for your Primary drive to be so extremely quiet, You must have a new Crank gear and a new clutch basket gear UH ????

... you have one quiet motor on your bike !

Haha, just caught this. No, 46-year-old OEM original gearing. Up until last year when I upgraded to the 447 clutch. Checked that it had the same miniscule gearlash.

Yes, straight spur gears are known to be noisy, but apparently not so with the XS650s. Don't recall hearing members reporting gear noise. The bottom of the basket swims in oil, maybe why they're so quiet...

 

[xjwmx]

Sounds like the voice of experience..........

Not bad experience. I was like how da fack do I know those pins are in the holes...

 

[Bob Kelly III]

2M: Ahhh Sooooo ! so it would be wise to keep the Oil full to the top line then so the primary gear is constantly bathes in oil from the clutch basket then EH ???????
.....
gggGary: thank you for that little get around for the side stand bracket getting in the way of the oil sump bolt !
............
so boys .... it don't look good at all ! crank is wobbling causing extreme ware on the clutch which has made the noise I think.
..... unfortunately I cannot afford a new crank, hell I'm lucky to afford gaskets yet alone major parts so I guess there's only one direction for me to go and that is put it back together as it is ! Damm ! I love that old bike but it's terminally Ill !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
........
it may run for years like that and then again it may only run a week and the crank move more and cause self destruct !
it will be like riding a time bomb waiting for it to destroy itself.....
I guess that is why my brother inlaw parked it he must have heard the change in it and knew something was bad wrong.
I do know he wanted to rebuild it completely but didn't have the funds, cancer set in and cured the problem for him.
.....
So.... I'm not going to spend $2000 bucks on a Old street bike when what I want and need is a smaller on off road bike. I can buy a running bike with licenses on it for that.
.......
anyone want to buy a 83' Yamaha XS650HS with a wobbly crank for $500. bucks and no paperwork ?
...... it does run !
Bob.........