Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Hay Dude ! did you take the sump off WITHOUT pulling the engine ? no one here has commented either way on that and I assume you have to ...did YOU ?
Bob..........
Bob..........
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That Wrrrr Noise....
- Thread starter Bob Kelly III
- Start date
No you don't have to. With the later specials it is easier to have the side stand down though.
Drop it at an angle with the right side lower.
Drop it at an angle with the right side lower.
Werrrrrrrrr,.............get out of Bobs bike
Bob.........your a naughty boy............changing the oil and checking the sump screen is the first thing that should be done on any new to you old bike.............You may well find if you take off the sump plate off you will have most of the clues to what has gone wrong.......
Bob.........your a naughty boy............changing the oil and checking the sump screen is the first thing that should be done on any new to you old bike.............You may well find if you take off the sump plate off you will have most of the clues to what has gone wrong.......
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Ok Thanks WER !
I found something interesting in the manual just now upon the primary drive
although I tried to copy and paste from adobe reader it didn't work ( figures)
anyway it said that if the NOISE from the primary drive is excessive the 2 gears must be replaced ( there is no fix, obviously )
it did not give any tolerances to the teeth meshing ....
I do know that this bile had allot of riding done on it in the lower gears 2,3,4 5th not so much, so it's equivelant miles may well be 20,000 miles
instead of almost 8,000 miles as the odometer says.
.....
but it is interesting that the manual mentioned that if there is excessive NOISE ( well, mine qualifies) that both the crank gear and the clutch basket need to be replaced...... I have a feeling that it's going to make noise for a long time to come as those are expensive parts !
Hummmmmm......
.....very interesting !
......
Bob........
I found something interesting in the manual just now upon the primary drive
although I tried to copy and paste from adobe reader it didn't work ( figures)
anyway it said that if the NOISE from the primary drive is excessive the 2 gears must be replaced ( there is no fix, obviously )
it did not give any tolerances to the teeth meshing ....
I do know that this bile had allot of riding done on it in the lower gears 2,3,4 5th not so much, so it's equivelant miles may well be 20,000 miles
instead of almost 8,000 miles as the odometer says.
.....
but it is interesting that the manual mentioned that if there is excessive NOISE ( well, mine qualifies) that both the crank gear and the clutch basket need to be replaced...... I have a feeling that it's going to make noise for a long time to come as those are expensive parts !
Hummmmmm......
.....very interesting !
......
Bob........
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Hay 2M for your Primary drive to be so extremely quiet, You must have a new Crank gear and a new clutch basket gear UH ????
if not how did you get the tolerances so tight ? because you have one quiet motor on your bike !
it reminds me of the Museum steam engines just plugging along not making any noise just going through the motions !
.....
Bob........
if not how did you get the tolerances so tight ? because you have one quiet motor on your bike !
it reminds me of the Museum steam engines just plugging along not making any noise just going through the motions !
.....
Bob........
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
650Skull : Yes..... Your Right ,( blush )
and I admit it.... but I do admit not doing it ! 
.... I'll pull the sump VERY soon I promise ....
soon as I clean my Oil drain pan !!!!!!! as that 20-50wt in there only has about 50~75 miles on it !
....
time to go clean the shop and move stuff around so I can get the bike in there !
.....
Bob..........
and I admit it.... but I do admit not doing it ! .... I'll pull the sump VERY soon I promise ....soon as I clean my Oil drain pan !!!!!!! as that 20-50wt in there only has about 50~75 miles on it !
....
time to go clean the shop and move stuff around so I can get the bike in there !
.....
Bob..........
I am on here way to much and i read most of the new threads. Don't get emails on threads i post in, i go to the threads that show there has been a new post since i last looked at it........
So things go into my head and they get to do the wirring or werrring............ when posts come up that give me a feeling there is something or some information that has been posted before, not directly relating to but leading me to think there is information that has been forgotten, missed or in some cases ignored.............. often by resurrecting this information i have been vilified because the OP thinks am putting them down or someway to diminish there reasoning or intelligence........
The reason i have explained the above is because when you mentioned you didn't know if the sump plate could come off without the engine being removed it triggered that wrrrrring in my head..........
I went back over your first and second threads to see what i was missing.............First thread was concern about the noise of the motor, (this was in march this year), mentioned you had pulled the motor and inspected the top end and no problems found...........mentioned the possibility of the clutch or primary gears as the culprit.......
Third thread concerned the oil flow to the head, now this one is very relevant. The description of how, and how much oil, was coming out of the front tappet cover, when removed while the engine was running, and the description of how long the oil took get to the banjo bolt, and again, how much when it was cracked on the head is a major concern.
This was alluded to and several threads on the subject was posted for perusal.
This could be an indication that 5twins is on the right track bout the cam bearings. a lack of oil to the top end is going to make a hell of a lot of noise and eventually cause bearing, rocker, valve and cam damage............This may not be all of the noise but i would be seriously revisiting this issue and if it was my bike i would not be riding any more till the oil problem was sorted...........
So things go into my head and they get to do the wirring or werrring............ when posts come up that give me a feeling there is something or some information that has been posted before, not directly relating to but leading me to think there is information that has been forgotten, missed or in some cases ignored.............. often by resurrecting this information i have been vilified because the OP thinks am putting them down or someway to diminish there reasoning or intelligence........
The reason i have explained the above is because when you mentioned you didn't know if the sump plate could come off without the engine being removed it triggered that wrrrrring in my head..........
I went back over your first and second threads to see what i was missing.............First thread was concern about the noise of the motor, (this was in march this year), mentioned you had pulled the motor and inspected the top end and no problems found...........mentioned the possibility of the clutch or primary gears as the culprit.......
Third thread concerned the oil flow to the head, now this one is very relevant. The description of how, and how much oil, was coming out of the front tappet cover, when removed while the engine was running, and the description of how long the oil took get to the banjo bolt, and again, how much when it was cracked on the head is a major concern.
This was alluded to and several threads on the subject was posted for perusal.
This could be an indication that 5twins is on the right track bout the cam bearings. a lack of oil to the top end is going to make a hell of a lot of noise and eventually cause bearing, rocker, valve and cam damage............This may not be all of the noise but i would be seriously revisiting this issue and if it was my bike i would not be riding any more till the oil problem was sorted...........
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Yes Indeed ! Thank you for pointing that out ! and it make alot more sense now that would indeed contribute to the Wrrrr sound in the head
which IS THERE.... it's not super loud but it is present.... the question is it louder than it should be is anyone's guess .
When I pulled the left front tappet cover to see if there was oil circulation I was confused at first because I didn't see any oil at all being splashed out ( and this is after it was warmed up) I almost put my face in front of the hole and looked in but I am glad I didn't I put my hand there and then discovered the oil.... it was coming out of the head real heavily in a thick MIST about 1/10 of a second and my hand was dripping wet with fairly hot oil.... I thought WOW then looked at the front of the bike and still could not see any oil coming out but the front fork was covered and everything else in front of the bike was dripping in oil ! to about 4 feet away... I killed the bike and started cleaning up the mess !
but it has oil circulating in the head.... weather it is the correct amount or not I do not know....
...... is there an orifice on the up tube that is adjustable for the oil flow to the head ? all I saw was a fitting .
.... I checked the banjo bolts and I had oil coming out of each one.
.......
Hay...Happy Day ! My Mini Volt meter just arrived from China the $4.95 one.... I will mount it in the dash board /key thing .
I got my fuse box off of there finally it's gone now and I replaced it with female blade connectors and the new fuses... seams to work good
I lust left them a bit more wire and I tuck them down under the tank mounting bracket all 4 of them seams tidy and out of the way .( I soldered the connections and wrapped good with black tape, and insulated between each female connector with a folded wad of black tape to keep them from touching.)
I also re routed the tail light wires to go UNDER the seat bracket I had to make to hold the snap on seat on there ...something I've been meaning to do for a while now. tested it after I was done and the right turn signal doesn't blink now ! I think it must be the ground I'll figure that out I hope.
..... I did get the bike into the shop and on its centerstand but I ran out of UUMPH and decided to call it a day.... tomorrow I will drain the oil and pull the sump.... then probably the side plate and Maybe , the cam bearing covers to see if there's any signs of bearings going away.
I may not do that , kind'a depends on what I find doing the sump and clutch side cover.
........
Question for you Guys that have had the clutches off many times... how much Twist/ backlash do you get from the clutch basket against the Primary gear ? can you feel slop in it or should it be tight ? the manual just says if it makes noise replace them both !
not very helpful !!!!!
.....
Bob.........
which IS THERE.... it's not super loud but it is present.... the question is it louder than it should be is anyone's guess .
When I pulled the left front tappet cover to see if there was oil circulation I was confused at first because I didn't see any oil at all being splashed out ( and this is after it was warmed up) I almost put my face in front of the hole and looked in but I am glad I didn't I put my hand there and then discovered the oil.... it was coming out of the head real heavily in a thick MIST about 1/10 of a second and my hand was dripping wet with fairly hot oil.... I thought WOW then looked at the front of the bike and still could not see any oil coming out but the front fork was covered and everything else in front of the bike was dripping in oil ! to about 4 feet away... I killed the bike and started cleaning up the mess !
but it has oil circulating in the head.... weather it is the correct amount or not I do not know....
...... is there an orifice on the up tube that is adjustable for the oil flow to the head ? all I saw was a fitting .
.... I checked the banjo bolts and I had oil coming out of each one.
.......
Hay...Happy Day ! My Mini Volt meter just arrived from China the $4.95 one.... I will mount it in the dash board /key thing .
I got my fuse box off of there finally it's gone now and I replaced it with female blade connectors and the new fuses... seams to work good
I lust left them a bit more wire and I tuck them down under the tank mounting bracket all 4 of them seams tidy and out of the way .( I soldered the connections and wrapped good with black tape, and insulated between each female connector with a folded wad of black tape to keep them from touching.)
I also re routed the tail light wires to go UNDER the seat bracket I had to make to hold the snap on seat on there ...something I've been meaning to do for a while now. tested it after I was done and the right turn signal doesn't blink now ! I think it must be the ground I'll figure that out I hope.
..... I did get the bike into the shop and on its centerstand but I ran out of UUMPH and decided to call it a day.... tomorrow I will drain the oil and pull the sump.... then probably the side plate and Maybe , the cam bearing covers to see if there's any signs of bearings going away.
I may not do that , kind'a depends on what I find doing the sump and clutch side cover.
........
Question for you Guys that have had the clutches off many times... how much Twist/ backlash do you get from the clutch basket against the Primary gear ? can you feel slop in it or should it be tight ? the manual just says if it makes noise replace them both !
not very helpful !!!!!
.....
Bob.........
Not sure if you are kidding or not; you added no smiley.
You see, the washers came from the hold-down bolts for the sump filter. The PO undoubtedly put them in his parts tray and then set the filter there, too, and picked them up on the magnet without noticing. Unable to find them, he put non-OEM washers on the filter hold down bolts.
Hey, Bob. Two things to check when you get the right side cover off.
First would be to do a quick (plugs out) crank spin, looking for any subtle hint of crank runout. Look again at gggGary's video in davem222's thread, post #149.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/high-pitched-mystery-sound.23162/page-8#post-309406
Second would be to examine the area just behind where the primary gears mesh, looking for telltale signs of scraping of the basket's teeth on the case.
Again,from davem222's thread, post #78.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/high-pitched-mystery-sound.23162/page-4#post-267118
A bit closer look at that "skunge" line.
From this perspective, the crank rotates clockwise, the clutch basket spins CCW. Metal particles from scraping there would be ejected upwards, and could eventually find their way into that rightside crank ball bearing, as noted in davem222's thread.
Also note that scraping noise, and/or bearing noise, would easily transmit upward, thru that case web, to the right/rear cylinder stud...
First would be to do a quick (plugs out) crank spin, looking for any subtle hint of crank runout. Look again at gggGary's video in davem222's thread, post #149.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/high-pitched-mystery-sound.23162/page-8#post-309406
Second would be to examine the area just behind where the primary gears mesh, looking for telltale signs of scraping of the basket's teeth on the case.
Again,from davem222's thread, post #78.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/high-pitched-mystery-sound.23162/page-4#post-267118
A bit closer look at that "skunge" line.
From this perspective, the crank rotates clockwise, the clutch basket spins CCW. Metal particles from scraping there would be ejected upwards, and could eventually find their way into that rightside crank ball bearing, as noted in davem222's thread.
Also note that scraping noise, and/or bearing noise, would easily transmit upward, thru that case web, to the right/rear cylinder stud...
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Re: Primary gear mesh. The early 2-stroke Yamahas had gear selection choices for setting primary gear lash. Not so with the XS650. Here's the bulletin.
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
2M : YAh ! that was what I was asking about ! Good MAN !!!!! but the XS650 is Kind'a exempt from that stuff eh ?
IF that what it is in my bike that is causing the noise then the lash is too small or TIGHT.... and making the whining sound...( I call it a Wrrrrr )
..... it's obviously too early to tell because I havn't taken the clutch off yet.... but I have a feeling that's what it is .
.....
I had a Old Suzuki 100cc years ago that went like a scalded ape ! I could do 60mph with that little thing easy and could peek at 75 down hill !
it had what you would call Lots of gear lash.... the teeth were pointed on the primary gear ! and the clutch gear looked the same !
the engine made a racket when it ran but I didn't care about that back then just as long as it worked and stayed together ! and it did for years !
you could turn the clutch basket and get a clunk out of it in either direction it would probably move 1/16" to 1/8" back and forth !
I had the clutch off it several times finally put new clutch friction disks in it and never had it apart again ! LOL
that was a case of too much lash.... and I've never seen one with too little so this will be interesting indeed.....
.....
I bet I could cut a strip of tin foil and put it in the gears and rotate it through and if it cut the tinfoil to ribbons that would show that it's too tight .
does that make sense to you 2M ?..... if it is too tight could I chuck it up in the lathe and trim off .001 and be good to go ? I know that don't do a thing for the tooth shape but it would ease the pressure being exerted on both shafts !
( as hard as that gear is I doubt my little lathe could touch it ! LOL )
.......
I spun the engine through with the side plate off last time and was watching for crank wobble and I didn't see any.... but I don't have a dial indicator to check for the minute tolerances needed my eyes are not That good any more ! LOL
..........
THANK YOU FOR THAT INFO !!!!!! i've been wondering about it ! at least I know there is no different Primary gear to buy to make it Right.
....
I decided NOT to mount the mini digital volt meter in the console on the bike, instead I just trimmed off the mounting ears and glued it to the handle bars by the key switch with Shoe-goo !!!! it's butted up against the handle bar clamp on the left side.... LOL it should work good there,...... now if I can find a Head Temp or Oil temp matching digital meter I can put it on the other side of the key switch and balance it out and it'll look Super ! LOL
..
and I will browse those threads again thank you !
.... it be reading time !
Bob...........
IF that what it is in my bike that is causing the noise then the lash is too small or TIGHT.... and making the whining sound...( I call it a Wrrrrr )
..... it's obviously too early to tell because I havn't taken the clutch off yet.... but I have a feeling that's what it is .
.....
I had a Old Suzuki 100cc years ago that went like a scalded ape ! I could do 60mph with that little thing easy and could peek at 75 down hill !
it had what you would call Lots of gear lash.... the teeth were pointed on the primary gear ! and the clutch gear looked the same !
the engine made a racket when it ran but I didn't care about that back then just as long as it worked and stayed together ! and it did for years !
you could turn the clutch basket and get a clunk out of it in either direction it would probably move 1/16" to 1/8" back and forth !
I had the clutch off it several times finally put new clutch friction disks in it and never had it apart again ! LOL
that was a case of too much lash.... and I've never seen one with too little so this will be interesting indeed.....
.....
I bet I could cut a strip of tin foil and put it in the gears and rotate it through and if it cut the tinfoil to ribbons that would show that it's too tight .
does that make sense to you 2M ?..... if it is too tight could I chuck it up in the lathe and trim off .001 and be good to go ? I know that don't do a thing for the tooth shape but it would ease the pressure being exerted on both shafts !
( as hard as that gear is I doubt my little lathe could touch it ! LOL )
.......
I spun the engine through with the side plate off last time and was watching for crank wobble and I didn't see any.... but I don't have a dial indicator to check for the minute tolerances needed my eyes are not That good any more ! LOL
..........
THANK YOU FOR THAT INFO !!!!!! i've been wondering about it ! at least I know there is no different Primary gear to buy to make it Right.
....
I decided NOT to mount the mini digital volt meter in the console on the bike, instead I just trimmed off the mounting ears and glued it to the handle bars by the key switch with Shoe-goo !!!! it's butted up against the handle bar clamp on the left side.... LOL it should work good there,...... now if I can find a Head Temp or Oil temp matching digital meter I can put it on the other side of the key switch and balance it out and it'll look Super ! LOL
..
and I will browse those threads again thank you !
.... it be reading time !
Bob...........
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Ok draining the oil and taking the side plate off, we shall see what we shall see ! ....
I'll take Pictures ! ....
Bob......
I'll take Pictures ! ....
Bob......
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
Sorry for the blurry pictures guys but it seams the best this camera-phone can do....
only thing I see bad so far is the shit in the filter which means the cam chain guides I think
the gunk on the bottom of the engine didn't seam to have Metal in it mostly just chunks of rubber.... there may be some metal flakes though
..... upon inspection I found I could rotate the clutch basket against the primary drive and get movement back and forth about 1/32" if that...probably just a few thousandths ....about the depth of tapit settings or so.... so quite a bit of LASH !!!!!!
I will continue to pull the clutch off and get down where I can inspect the main crank bearing ( hopefully)
......
I don't like the look of all that rubber from the cam chain guides.... for all I know they could be completely bare of the rubber and showing only metal !!!!! which would make the noise for sure.... but if that were the case I think it would be allot louder ! ( just guessing)
.... I will try to change the settings on my phone to something different to get sharper pictures....
......any comments so far ?
Bob.......
only thing I see bad so far is the shit in the filter which means the cam chain guides I think
the gunk on the bottom of the engine didn't seam to have Metal in it mostly just chunks of rubber.... there may be some metal flakes though
..... upon inspection I found I could rotate the clutch basket against the primary drive and get movement back and forth about 1/32" if that...probably just a few thousandths ....about the depth of tapit settings or so.... so quite a bit of LASH !!!!!!
I will continue to pull the clutch off and get down where I can inspect the main crank bearing ( hopefully)
......
I don't like the look of all that rubber from the cam chain guides.... for all I know they could be completely bare of the rubber and showing only metal !!!!! which would make the noise for sure.... but if that were the case I think it would be allot louder ! ( just guessing)
.... I will try to change the settings on my phone to something different to get sharper pictures....
......any comments so far ?
Bob.......
Bob Kelly III
Ranch Kid from way back,.... that got Old !
I'll pull the Oil sump next and get that off.....
.....
before I do that ....I pulled the clutch and primary gear off ....
found the problem for my tach not working so all this was worth the effort....
the pin that holds the tack drive from spinning on the crank was sheered off ( in 2 pieces)
pic below if you can see it ! .....
Bob......
.....
before I do that ....I pulled the clutch and primary gear off ....
found the problem for my tach not working so all this was worth the effort....
the pin that holds the tack drive from spinning on the crank was sheered off ( in 2 pieces)
pic below if you can see it ! .....
Bob......
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