electrical schematic discrepancy ?

[peanut]

Had a bit of a nightmare trying to fault find my non working flashers last week which wasn't helped by what appears to be a discrepancy in some of the electrical schematics on the site.

The 1978,79 and 80 schematics show one of the flasher relay terminals conected to ground which surely cannot work as there doesn't appear to be a 12v+ live feed to the relay. unless it comes via the yellow /green wire from the flasher cancelling unit ??

The above schematics show the following wires on the flasher relay
1. A brown /white wire (which is the live feed from the relay to the flasher switch and flasher lamps)
2. A yellow /green wire which connects to the flasher cancelling unit
3. A black wire which connects to the common black ground wire system throughout the bike .

The flasher relay of my 79 special has a different connection to those shown on the 78,79 & 80 schematics and has the following coloured loom wire connected to the flasher relay

1. A brown /white wire (which is the intermittent live feed from the relay to the flasher switch and flasher lamps)
2. A yellow /green wire which connects to the flasher cancelling unit
3. A brown wire which connects directly to the 12v+ horn /flasher relay fuse on the fuse block . This is clearly meant to be the live feed to the flasher relay on this bike

Why do the schematics show a black ground wire and not a brown live feed ?

 

[XSLeo]

The 78 used two wiring diagrams, early was the same as the 77, late was the same as the 79. 80 was different because they deleted the headlight on/off switch.
on all the diagrams I have in my factory book, the Clymer, and the Haynes books show the flasher as having power red to it on a brown wire, the power out is on the brown/white wire. Early had a black wire to ground, later had a green/yellow to the self canceler. I think the self canceler used the G/Y wire as a ground to stop the flasher from flashing.
After looking at the diagrams on here, I can say I don't know where they came from but are wrong on that part.
There are mistakes in most of the diagrams I have looked at. I think most of these occurred during copying from the factory books.
All the bikes I've looked at all feed the flasher with a brown wire, power from the flasher to the switch is brown/white. On the early models, 70-76 they had a black ground wire, 77 up had the green/yellow were to the self canceler. The switch it self has some extra wires, a red/yellow and a black wire.
When you push the switch left or right it then returned to center. When you push it it sends a signal to the self canceler that trips a latching relay. This relay keeps the signals flashing till the self canceler determines when to shut them off. It does this by grounding the G/Y wire to the flasher this shuts of the flasher.
You can shut the turns off manually by pushing the turn switch straight in, this signals the self canceler to turn off the flasher.
When the flasher gets turned off the latching relay resets for the next time you use the turn signals.
The brown wire that feeds the flasher also feeds most everything else on the bike.
Power from the key switch flows on the brown wire to the fuse box where it feeds all three 10 amp fuses. After the fuse the brown wire feeds light checker, the brake switches, horn, regulator, depending on year it feeds the positive brush on the alternator, light failure bulb, neutral light bulb.
Leo

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yes, as Leo says, there are errors in some wiring diagrams. The diagrams were made by humans, and humans make errors.

The 1978,1979, and 1980 diagrams show a black ground wire feeding to the flasher relay, when in fact it should have been a brown wire coming from the signals fuse. The 1981/82/83 diagrams seem to be correct, so someone found the error and made the correction.

If you look carefully, there are other wiring errors on the
1978 SE and 1979 SF diagrams.

 

[peanut]

thanks for the detailed explanation Leo.
I knew the schematics had to be wrong but I wasn't entirely sure how exactly the self cancelling unit worked so decided to keep my powder dry.

I wondered if the yellow green wire from the self cancel unit fed a live feed to the relay on some models and the self cancelling unit cut that feed to cancel the flashers but now I understand how the unit works thanks for the explanation.

I am pretty sure that the best upgrade for the existing flasher system is to use a 2x pin electronic relay and disconnect the self cancelling unit altogether.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...use a 2x pin electronic relay ...

Not my department, but I recall some warnings to avoid placing 'low-or-no draw' electronic flasher relays near any RF emmissives, like the ignition system and coils...

 

[peanut]

might be worthwhile following that up sometime . You might have expected them to be shielded as they are specified for bikes

 

[peanut]

Early had a black wire to ground, later had a green/yellow to the self canceler.

I think the self canceler used the G/Y wire as a ground to stop the flasher from flashing.
When the flasher gets turned off the latching relay resets for the next time you use the turn signals.

You can shut the turns off manually by pushing the turn switch straight in, this signals the self canceler to turn off the flasher.


Leo

On the xs650SF & 2F schematic it shows the self cancelling reed relay to be located in the speedo housing. As you say it switches the G Y wire to ground within the speedo housing. I read somewhere recently that there also is a speed sensor that trips the reed relay that cancels the flasher relay.

I was testing the flasher switch operation the other day and noticed that pressing the flasher switch in had a mechanical canceling action . It actually flicks the switch slider back into the centre between the dk green and chocalate wire contacts.

I have disconnected the yellow/red wire and removed the self cancelling copper finger mica board connected to it from the flasher switch and now I can either flick the switch lever left or right back to the centre position or I can press the flasher switch lever when its at any position and it cancels the flasher

 

[Shelby]

I have disconnected the yellow/red wire and removed the self cancelling copper finger mica board connected to it from the flasher switch and now I can either flick the switch lever left or right back to the centre position or I can press the flasher switch lever when its at any position and it cancels the flasher

Wait. Self-canceling WTF? Seriously? Am I reading something wrong? The turn signals were supposed to have a self canceling unit? None of mine -- '82 & '83 Specials (back in the 90s), 2008, 10, and 14 250 V-Stars -- have ever had working signal cancelers. Ever. I know this for sure because my ability to forget to cancel the damn turn signals has been a major point of contention through the decades... Almost up to the level of the forgetting to turn off the stove burner under the tea kettle.

 

[650Skull]

Wait. Self-canceling WTF? Seriously? Am I reading something wrong? The turn signals were supposed to have a self canceling unit? None of mine -- '82 & '83 Specials (back in the 90s), 2008, 10, and 14 250 V-Stars -- have ever had working signal cancelers. Ever. I know this for sure because my ability to forget to cancel the damn turn signals has been a major point of contention through the decades... Almost up to the level of the forgetting to turn off the stove burner under the tea kettle.

The self canceling unit can be intermittent itself. Mine worked at times and also went on to long or cut out when stationary. It is one of the features i recommend to remove. If it is working ok then don't, till it doesn't

 

[Shelby]

View attachment 324508

The self canceling unit can be intermittent itself. Mine worked at times and also went on to long or cut out when stationary. It is one of the features i recommend to remove. If it is working ok then don't, till it doesn't

Noooo. I want one! I want one that works!! LOL

 

[650Skull]

Noooo. I want one! I want one that works!! LOL

You love digging through things. Go here https://thexscafedotcom.wordpress.com/ He has all the manuals, supplements and parts manuals, (PDF), The 82/3 manuals are great for better pics and around the electrical circuits.

A lot of great reading. Will keep you busy for a while.